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View Full Version : Forging Ahead - Warleader usages



Ziggy
03-01-2013, 08:49 AM
I've been playing about with each of the classes, seeing how each might be used, and Warleader has me largely stumped.

I definitely think there is potential there. His high break is tasty and the effect he has on your opponents ability to plan ahead is very interesting, but the only solid Synergy I can see is with other Warriors, and I sort of feel as you're sacrificing the turn, you might be better served just bringing another in his place.

Ideally I'd like to go in with a backup plan should the Hawk/Master get dropped early, but also think of something smart to do in the opening turns - when an attack wouldn't be wasted and to show the other guy you'll be mixing things up. Possibly dual Slag and Burns (more generally I can't see synergy with archers going well due to the need for contact and lack of maneuverability).

Anyone have or seen cunning uses of this complex class yet?

Bloodaddict
03-01-2013, 09:23 AM
I think the usefulness of the Warleaders ability depends very much on the situation (I bet, this answer helps you a lot... ;) ), but one use in the early game could be that you have him right behind an archer. Then with the first move of the archer, you bring him in range and do a high break shot using willpower. Then the WL forges this archer ahead, and now that the archer is in position and armor is lowered (maybe not just from the archer but also from other units who moved before) you get an early puncture hit. Just an idea, not saying that I would take the WL only for this first round maneuver.

piotras
03-01-2013, 09:43 AM
As Bloodaddict mentions there's the use for high-break archers but besides attacking again with your archer you can use it as an opening harassment move, because after your archer gets in range you can make him retreat into safety. Also, this move causes your archer to be after your heavy armour breaking WL in the initiative (if build that way), which is perfect for later game.

I also works well with melee units. With high strength / low armour BBs or warrior varls for example you can walk into range of an archer or some other high priority target and make him attack again next turn before someone can maim him. It also allows to get more juice out of your Thrashers if you go on to attack a unit and than use forge ahead to give him more WP and boost his bloody flail by giving him adjacement bonus, which is especially great in TH vs TH standoffs.

Hoever, if a Thrasher misses than you just wasted 1 WP and a WL turn (which could be used for 4+1-3 quaranteed armour break) on a rather mediocre move, so I wouldn't advise building your WL around the Thrasher.

(well to be honest, I wouldn't advise building anything around the Thrasher besides damage-sink / 'kill-me-so-I-can-get-turn-advantage' :P)

EDIT:

also, in rank 2 and 3 the effective distance of WL's ability gets bigger so its good to learn how to take advantage of it to kick ass on higher ranks ;)

Dhramund
03-01-2013, 09:47 AM
That is a fairly good use for him. He is good to keep in the back for early game using forge ahead to help change the flow of battle in your favor. Then, hopefully, in late game he is healthy and you have softened up your enemy enough to start mopping up with him.

Ziggy
03-01-2013, 10:40 AM
I rather like that. A cheeky Slag and Burn across their front row and then to safety, perhaps?

I really like the idea of building the running order around him. Maybe Bowmaster -> Warmaster -> Siege Archer -> Warleader -> *. Pulling "Guerilla Archery" in the first set, get in two huge shots with the WM in the second and with luck, clean up in the end game with the Bowmaster.

Shiri
03-01-2013, 10:45 AM
The problem with slag and burn is that the coals only last until her next turn, so it won't actually achieve that much, just a little bit of damage and a spent turn by your warleader (who is then probably in range because he's only 1 square away from where the SA was.)

Ziggy
03-01-2013, 11:02 AM
The problem with slag and burn is that the coals only last until her next turn, so it won't actually achieve that much, just a little bit of damage and a spent turn by your warleader (who is then probably in range because he's only 1 square away from where the SA was.)

Right, but your choices for that early shot are a basic armour break, a Rain of Arrows on one of the two guys who will move in between or Slag and Burn with it's break and AOE. (And I'd probably step the WL in just behind, placing him 5 squares away, which is were I try to be in set 1 anyhow)

netnazgul
03-01-2013, 11:19 AM
Recent forum chat idea/suggestion - allow using Forge Ahead on enemy characters, moving them back in queue.

Jorgensager
03-01-2013, 11:23 AM
Recent forum chat idea/suggestion - allow using Forge Ahead on enemy characters, moving them back in queue.

Hm, couldn't this be abused by the WM always going before a targeted unit, so you can practically infinite-loop out one unit of choice (unless they kill your WM)... so it's just a stronger version of the Provoker's ability (since you don't get to attack the WM, and in addition can be used on friendly units)?

Maybe his lvl 2 ability could be "Forge Behind" or something instead? :p

Ziggy
03-01-2013, 11:31 AM
Hm, couldn't this be abused by the WM always going before a targeted unit, so you can practically infinite-loop out one unit of choice (unless they kill your WM)... so it's just a stronger version of the Provoker's ability (since you don't get to attack the WM, and in addition can be used on friendly units)?
The back of the report would be just before the WM's next turn, so if you tried to use it again, they would stay in the same position.

You'd be neutralising part of that units turn, which would be a reasonable exchange for giving up most of yours (you still get to move, which has value on it's own) - while potentially limiting synergies they'd worked into their order.

I like it.

edit: back of the report? that will teach me to ninja post at work. "Back of the queue".

Jorgensager
03-01-2013, 11:35 AM
The back of the report would be just before the WM's next turn, so if you tried to use it again, they would stay in the same position. But yes, it would basically neutralise a whole turn, which would seem a fair exchange for giving one up.

Ah, right. Having both abilities sounds fairly strong, though, so I'm not sure if it's a good idea at lvl 1?

Then again I haven't had the opportunity to play around with Forge Ahead yet, so I can't really have an opinion on whether it's underpowered or not (but on two occasions it has been used to mess up my plans, so I know it's not useless! :p )

Ziggy
03-01-2013, 11:45 AM
Ah, right. Having both abilities sounds fairly strong, though, so I'm not sure if it's a good idea at lvl 1?
As I say, you are giving up your turn to use it, which is quite an investment for a Varl.

I can see a couple of problems: it would be vicious when combined with the ability to use at range, which I believe is one of the rank bonuses, but I don't know how powerful the ranks are intended to be so hard to say if that's a balance problem, and you could technically use two to deny a unit having any turns at all, but that's investing both of your Varl, which is horribly inefficient (though hilarious).

They'd probably need to consider it's use during pillage, but that seems fairly minor.

piotras
03-01-2013, 11:45 AM
The extra use of forge ahead sounds like a good idea for a another class, a mender perhaps?

Jorgensager
03-01-2013, 12:03 PM
As I say, you are giving up your turn to use it, which is quite an investment for a Varl.


Yes, but he already has an ability which makes him skip his turn for "the greater good". My point is that you wouldn't take away the current ability, just giving him an additional one. That means more options which you are never forced to take advantage (or disadvantage) of. Maybe it could work to introduce this as a 1wp ability at lvl 2 with limited range at lvl 3? (i.e. like the lvl 2 range will be for forge ahead)...


The extra use of forge ahead sounds like a good idea for a another class, a mender perhaps?

... or just give it to another class ;o

Ziggy
03-01-2013, 12:17 PM
Yes, but he already has an ability which makes him skip his turn for "the greater good". My point is that you wouldn't take away the current ability, just giving him an additional one. That means more options which you are never forced to take advantage (or disadvantage) of. Maybe it could work to introduce this as a 1wp ability at lvl 2 with limited range at lvl 3? (i.e. like the lvl 2 range will be for forge ahead)...
Aye, I understand, but I think the suggestion is that they're currently "underpowered" and need some oomph. I've not used them much myself, but I suspect their power lies more in complexity, and so are hard to compare to say, Tempest, which just wallops things.

Jorgensager
03-01-2013, 12:19 PM
Aye, I understand, but I think the suggestion is that they're currently "underpowered" and need some oomph. I've not used them much myself, but I suspect their power lies more in complexity, and so are hard to compare to say, Tempest, which just wallops things.

Right, ok. As mentioned I'm not qualified to comment on whether he's underpowered or not (yet), so I guess I'll have to give him a go on my next 5 kill warrior! ^_^

Dhramund
03-01-2013, 12:45 PM
I am not that experienced in his use, but I don't feel that Forge Ahead is too overpowered. You do have to be close to the unit that you are using his ability on. Which if he is in the front, you usually want him smashing things. However, if you are someone who likes to save their warrior for the end of the game. That ability is great since you can still get some use out of him while keeping him in reserve.

I am having thoughts of pairing my Warleader with a Shieldmaster to really start bringing down my opponent's shields in the early game. Make them pay to bring the SM down then use the Warleader and archer to start mopping up.

Wordplay
03-01-2013, 03:11 PM
Other day I was running WM TH TH W SA A. I deployed quite forward, and my opponent rushed their WM in to cripple my WM, + 3 sets of impact damage to the THs and SA. Then my opponents Warleader came in and used Forge ahead on the WM. It was all I could do to move a thrasher out the way and BF the WM. I could have just about survived the double hit from the WM, but the heavy impact damage to my archer and thrashers made the situation unrecoverable.

The Warleader will also be much more powerful when he gets his rank 2 and 3 - it's a very difficult unit to use effectively, but when he is, he decides battles.

Alex
03-02-2013, 04:10 PM
Warleader is currently our most complex character to use. We've tested him quite a bit and found that if you don't know how to use him, he can actually harm your team by messing up your turn order. But if you put some time and effort into it you can make some really complex strategies.

Also, as others have mentioned, rank 2 and 3 will allow for a lot more guerrilla-style tactics.

piotras
03-02-2013, 05:00 PM
I suspect that at rank 3 he will be my Varl of choice ;)

Butters
03-07-2013, 10:10 AM
Another potential use for the WL would be in combination with a Provoker.
When you have turn advantage and move your provoker away before the turn of the provoked unit, it actually skips its turn completely (assuming its a melee unit ; archers may actually shoot you, not tested).
So in the same way, Forge Ahead on the Provoker would make sure you disable completely one unit (without taking the hit), and still have a move available with the Pk - possibly to provoke another unit, effectively denying the enemy two turns.
Haven't had the chance to try it out yet though.

Gramalian
03-07-2013, 11:59 AM
I used the leader in beta and I use him now but the loss of power at rank 1 vs the other 2 is still an issue. Im not going to suggest that he get some crazy buff but I could see it going to an instant turn swap for the target, but you could easily fix the issue with just giving it a range of 3ish at rank 1.

Im wondering about builds for warleaders. Do you guys go high armor break or try to build him like the other warriors with 16/17 damage( he would be 15) but lower armor? Unlike them his ability isnt tied to strength really so hes kind of one of those units that can really mess with the other playerwhen they try to maim and move on.

Anyway just looking at what people are building him as. I did 10/11/5/2/3 to give him a decent all around profile but I could see 15 damage being nice. If I could Id most likely drop WP down to 3-4 range and add it to hp.

ojustme
04-11-2013, 12:33 PM
I use SA WL WL SS BB BB build. With 10/15/5/1(2)/0 Warleaders. It was far more successful while it was rank 6 team (the latest win streak was 13 and the average wins/losses was about 6/1) as with the rank 12 coming enemy 3-rd lvl SA are really annoying.
I use SA as a bait/armour breaker/harasser and try to keep WL's close to each other so that they can boost themselves. It's really usefull as enemy has to cripple both of them or somehow flee. Otherwise you just pick the right one to move. Of course you also use that to move them really far. They have other purposes as well but it all comes from the particular positioning in the match. One should be really careful with this build as one mistake costs dearly. The main benefit is that you can adjust to almost any enemy. Play it riht and you win.
The main problem for this build are high-lvl SA. They can maim your WL's pretty effectively as with 13 power (one S&B use) WL's usage is limited and with 11 power (two S&B use) he isn't quite a hitter anymore, especially considering the fact he's being beaten by the others too. Still with a careful play you can overcome this too.
Of course this all is easier said than done so you'll have to practice a lot to win with this build.
The rest of the team: BB 12/10/4/1/3 for rank 2 and 10/10/4/2/3 for rank 1
SA: 7/7/8(7)/3/2
SS: 8(7)/8/7/3/1

upd: Oh, and due to the renown limits i personally use rank 2 everyone for power 12 build. If future i'm going to downgrade SS in favour of either SA or BB.
upd#2: 3 wins / 2 losses at the first stage of tournament and 3 losses in a row at the second. SA's be damned T_T