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Gu繜undr
03-01-2013, 03:46 PM
I know this was suggested during beta, but I just wanted to bring the topic up for discussion again.

Today, I started a match, and around 30 seconds into it I had a mini-emergency IRL and had to surrender. After I got back into the game, I discovered I had lost a ton of ELO points because I had surrendered to a relatively new player :(

Anyway, I feel it is very important to have a draw option, not only for situations like this (getting an important phone call, answering the door, having a medical emergency, etc.), but also for the previously mentioned "whoever shoots first loses" end-game scenarios.

djangoc
03-01-2013, 03:51 PM
That's a part of any game. If you had the same thing happen in LoL, unless your team could 4v5, you're gonna end up losing elo. If you were playing WoW Arena, same thing would happen.

Sorry :(

sweetjer
03-01-2013, 04:00 PM
+1 to draw. Stalemates, however rare, can happen in this game. There was a good example the other day where someone had an archer tucked behind the post in the map with the post at each corner and the other guy had a varl...the varl could stay out of range so the archer couldnt hit but the varl couldnt get behind the post to the archer. This is an obvious scenario where a draw would be appropriate, but there are others still like the example Gud gave where the last two units have no incentive to approach each other as whoever shoots first loses (say SS vs SS where both units have 1/2..the first guy hits for 1, the second guy gets puncture at 1/1 and wins).

erom
03-01-2013, 04:38 PM
If there was a draw mechanic that could be declared by one player, then it would be abusable to dodge strong players like the matchmaker cancel was.

If the draw mechanic requires both players to agree, then it penalizes the nice people who will let you go with a draw, and rewards being a jerk.

Really the only draw mechanic I can see including is an automatic one to resolve Mexican standoffs, which is a separate issue to having to take a phone call.

If you try to keep track of your elo loss/gain every game you are going to drive yourself insane. Relax, let it go.

mrpresident
03-01-2013, 06:01 PM
A simple pause mechanic (that blacks out the screen for the pausing player to prevent using it to extend the timer) might work. I think letting the player who didn't pause still be allowed to look at the map would be a good idea too, it would give them a slight tactical advantage making them less annoyed that the game is being delayed.

Of course you'd also need to give the opposing player the option to unpause it after a few minutes, so a losing player can't just pause it and walk away to be a jerk.

Anurak
03-01-2013, 07:07 PM
They could use a 1 time 3-5 min pause for each match, so the players have some time to finish what they have to do IRL and then get back in the game, but since I don't worry for ELO (after the second day's fiasco with 3-4 loses from disconnects) the absense of a pause function doesn't bother me. I'll just start a new game.

trisenk
03-02-2013, 12:04 PM
It's a useful option, and I agree it should be limited to 1 per game. But I also think that its use must cost something, because it should not used as an extra time. Print screen + Paint = additional time for thinking. I just want to avoid a plague a sudden important RL things that only happen 10 seconds before timer runs out in a complicated situation...

So, something like a -3 renown penalty for using it.

Another idea would be not to count the match as a win for the player using extra time if he wins it, but this may be too harsh.

gabusan
03-05-2013, 09:12 PM
If 30 turns or so happen with no damage being dealt, wouldnt it be sensible to declare the game a draw and grant like 1 renown to each side? In 1 on 1, if neither unit dares to approach the other, the game never ends.

brianrcampbell
03-06-2013, 03:55 AM
I like the idea of a pause mechanic, so long as it can be canceled by the other player (e.g. Starcraft). I can think of few things more frustrating than a bad mannered player pausing the game for 3 minutes before I can finish off his last unit.

I also like the idea of a draw feature modeled off chess. In chess, you can agree to a draw. Also, if you move a unit back and forth between 2 spots for 6 consecutive turns, you automatically lose (at least in whatever version of chessmaster I most recently played). That might not be precisely the way to implement it here, but some kind of auto-loss or auto-draw mechanic that covers situations where the game is clearly one-sided or clearly stalemated could be a good thing.

agris
03-06-2013, 01:24 PM
Adding a 'draw' mechanic where both parties must agree is the best solution. erom made a good point tho


If the draw mechanic requires both players to agree, then it penalizes the nice people who will let you go with a draw, and rewards being a jerk.

This could be effectively addressed by an additional game mechanic. During combat, there would be an 'Offer Palaver' menu option that a) paused battle and battle timers and b) re-centered the chat window the center of the screen, where the petitioning player can explain themselves. Only 1 palaver/battle would be offer'able, and after a ~30 - 60s window, the other player could 'break' it and return to combat, or 'agree to palaver' and thus pause combat. There would be a formal 'pause battle until..' button, where the party who petitioned for palaver would enter a time and both have to click 'agree', after which a timer starts. Combat would automatically resume after this timer expired.

From this window, which would be overlaid onto the battle map, a player could petition for draw or explain that they need a ~X minute pause, for whatever reason. The role of the 30 - 60s window is for the other player to either say 'no way' and resume combat or agree / engage in discussion of circumstances warranting a draw while combat is paused. Additionally, the petitioning player would have the date-stamp of his most recent draw offered (not accepted) next to his name, and his total amount of draw offers since he began TBS:F. This is all to reduce abuse.

The player being offered a draw would have the option to DECLINE, and thus force the SURRENDER of the other team.

This 1) makes players more likely to TALK before offering a draw, allowing them to come to an agreement that lets the non-drawing party feel satisfied. 2) Removes the potential for abuse, since the offer of a draw carries the risk of immediate surrender for the offer-er. Without this, players could immediately offer a draw when they begin to loose. This would eliminate the 'testing the waters' phenomenon that would undoubtedly occur.

EDIT: also, a cap on # of draw offers/wk to 1 or 2 would prevent 'nice guys' from being exploited.

Double edit: Restructured the idea, incorporating pausing, drawing and measures to minimize exploitation.

RomanLegacy
03-06-2013, 01:34 PM
I'm not sure I like the idea of a draw mechanic. If another player offers me a draw, then that puts the burden of seeming rude, or being a jerk, on me.

I don't want to have to deal with a situation of:
"Hey, I got a call, can we draw?" because if I reject that, say because I'm winning and in a good position to finish the match, then I have to say "sorry, no..." and feel guilty.

In the end, these games are only played versus one other player have a very short time commitment: 10 to 15 minutes at most for a normal match.

prettyboy
03-07-2013, 03:06 AM
Another part to the draw option is people faking calls and whatnots and asking for draws when their setup
is countered by the setup the enemy shows up with...

Take the loss if you need to leave and move on...

And original poster... "聲 brynja, er 嶲 varnarlaus. 聲 styrk, er 嶲 ekkert."
Its "聲 brynju, er 嶲 varnarlaus. 聲 styrks, er 嶲 ekkert." If u want to put it up correct 'wink'

Gu繜undr
03-07-2013, 02:18 PM
Since writing the original post, I've become much less concerned about ELO. And, like another forum user said, doing so tends makes the game less tense, and hence, more fun. And lots of good counter-points to my arguments, guys. I'm starting to reverse my original opinion on the draw mechanic... but keep the discussion going!



And original poster... "聲 brynja, er 嶲 varnarlaus. 聲 styrk, er 嶲 ekkert."
Its "聲 brynju, er 嶲 varnarlaus. 聲 styrks, er 嶲 ekkert." If u want to put it up correct 'wink'
Thanks! I will change it now!

mouton
03-07-2013, 10:51 PM
Seriously, there should be some mechanic against stalemates. I sometimes lose matches simply because I don't want to stand in place indefinitely like the opponent does.

Pepcart
03-07-2013, 11:44 PM
I've already been in several sessions where it's a clear stalemate and this is clearly a flaw in the game. I imagine it's less likely to happen at higher elo's but it's still possible. There needs to be one of two things implemented to fix it: an automatic draw function or a sudden death function.

Any kind of manual draw function would probably be abusable. Any kind of automatic stalemate function could be forced by a clearly losing player, but, depending on how it's implemented, this should take plenty of skill on the losing player's part, so it's better than nothing.

I think the best solution is a sudden death function like more and more spaces light on fire in a non-random pattern every turn after a certain amount of turns. Or something different on each map along those lines.

EDIT: Hate to sound like a total gripe with my first post. If a dev sees this, I do love this game otherwise and I'm liking where it's going.

mouton
03-07-2013, 11:55 PM
I think the best solution is a sudden death function like more and more spaces light on fire in a non-random pattern every turn after a certain amount of turns. Or something different on each map along those lines.
I was thinking of something similar. Flames encroaching, etc.

rzeznicc
03-08-2013, 04:14 PM
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/263/drawf.jpg

VOTE DRAW PLX

kovyrus
03-09-2013, 11:12 AM
Example of auto-draw mechanic: if both players skip turns for all units, draw is declared automatically.

netnazgul
03-09-2013, 01:58 PM
Example of auto-draw mechanic: if both players skip turns for all units, draw is declared automatically.

not so good when both archers are preparing an extra WP to use. Or if one of the archers just skips and the second is BM powering for Bird of Prey

kovyrus
03-09-2013, 02:43 PM
not so good when both archers are preparing an extra WP to use. Or if one of the archers just skips and the second is BM powering for Bird of Prey
Ok, corrected auto-draw mechanic: if both players skip turns for all units and don't get extra Willpower (they have already max Willpower), draw is declared automatically.

KRD
03-09-2013, 03:50 PM
And what if instead of resting or doing nothing, one of them simply moves onto a different, but equally safe square... indefinitely?

kovyrus
03-09-2013, 04:20 PM
And what if instead of resting or doing nothing, one of them simply moves onto a different, but equally safe square... indefinitely?

Imho draw should be declared if both players agreed to a draw. In your case one of players didn't agree to a draw.

netnazgul
03-10-2013, 04:52 AM
And not agreeing on the draw creates an abusive behaviour where one player will force another to surrender or to run circles indefinitely.

kovyrus
03-10-2013, 06:39 AM
And not agreeing on the draw creates an abusive behaviour where one player will force another to surrender or to run circles indefinitely.

Theoretically it is possible. But in practice I don't meet such situations. I think it is very rare. I only meet situation in which both players agreed to a draw.

Pepcart
03-10-2013, 04:36 PM
That the game doesn't have a draw function isn't the problem. The game's entropy doesn't guarantee an unavoidable end to each session; that's the problem. A stalemate mechanism is one solution. Sudden death is another. A limited number of rounds could do it. Making the outer edge of the board disappear after a certain number of turns pushing vikings on the those spaces in one space toward the center of the board could also do it.

Or how about this: a morale slider that tracks players' loss of vikings, health, armor or the number of times you have to rest to gain willpower; when you lose a point, your opponent gains one, and after the first point the slider skips zero so if you're at 1 morale and lose 1, it brings you to -1, preventing ties. If you lose enough morale, you just lose. If enough rounds go by without any morale adjustments, the higher morale instant-wins.

I just want to restate that any draw function in the game will be abusable (either as trolling or elo-loss dodging) or give the losing player a chance to steal the win with a stalemate. The former will happen if offering/accepting draws is entirely up to the players, while the latter will happen if it's automated. Automated draws would be more desirable if harder to implement.

I'm just spit balling here, but I wouldn't be surprised if Stoic already plans on doing something like this and wanted to wait until after beta to see what would be the fairest way to handle it. The game fairly screams for decisive end games.