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Grits
03-03-2013, 02:26 PM
So I have an idea to make the Thrasher a little different. Not really a buff, just a change for the better. So here it is:

Change Bloody Flail To:

First three hits are random STR/ARM/MISS
Fourth and final hit guaranteed STR 1 (+1 for each adjacent ally)

My reason for this is as follows. The whole point of BLF is to hit STR through ARM. Now, imagine you plan a few key moves setting up so that your TH is surrounded by three buddies. You use BLF only to miss on the last hit. Bummer, and possibly game changer/looser. I think the player should be rewarded for setting up a group BLF. I also don't think RNG should determine the outcome of games. Changing BLF in this way adds two additional RNG attacks (maintaining the random nature of the attck and the uniqueness of the character) BUT also adds the important element of predictability and strategy. TH would now be all about setting up a group BLF, which could change your whole playstyle, unlike how it works now...just rolling the dice.

On top of this, I imagine all his buddies yelling at him to 'come on bro', 'hit him hard!', 'we need this!' building up until that last key hit where your trusty TH comes through.

eAZy
03-03-2013, 02:35 PM
This is actually pretty interesting, I like it! Keeps the unit somewhat random, but doesn't waste careful positioning for the last hit so he can still be played strategically.

franknarf
03-03-2013, 02:49 PM
+1. I really like this idea! If they still need to balance it, they could make it 50%-25%-25% miss-str-arm on the first three or something for expected damage of only 2.5 (1.5+1) when on his own, which is close to the current level (1.5+2/3).

Too much hangs on the last hit the way it is now. After the most recent change, I finally switched from my TS to BB's with the same stats, and they're far better.

tnankie
03-03-2013, 03:55 PM
do we really need another thrasher thread, couldn't you have posted this in another one?

Wordplay
03-03-2013, 04:16 PM
My preferred solution for Bloody Flail would be:

1st 3 hits do either 1 STR or 1 ARM

4th hits always does 1 STR, and no more.

I hate the miss chance - what I want from BF is the guaranteed 1 STR damage. Still, it seems that everyone has an opinion on BF...

Thrasher's real special ability seems to be to generate threads for little willpower - they should nerf that in the next build.

gripho
03-03-2013, 05:47 PM
Interesting idea. It might also require a change on the higher levels of the ability (from what I understand they will add 1 additional hit per level, which isn't so good already so if you add a chance to miss on each hit - except last one - to that...)

Grits
03-03-2013, 06:03 PM
I don't mind the missing part. I just think the skill in using him comes from positioning. But there is no point doing all that work when your just going to miss or hit armor most of the time on that last hit, which can loose you the game.

piotras
03-03-2013, 08:01 PM
Sorry for being lazy, but I've wrote so much on the topic that I'll just copy&paste :)


It would be great to capture the beauty of getting extra lucky armour-ignoring shots and promote tactical formations that increase your chances of success as it was in the early beta. Remember that in the eyes of player that misses the last hit it's a potential loss of 1-3 damage and the harder the player was working on strategic formation the more devastating it feels.

My suggestion would be that bloody flail does 4 hits, with 25% base chance of attacking strength. For every adjacent ally, that chance would increase by further 25%. Most importantly: no extra damage from adjacent allies - in my opinion the single biggest issue which exponentially increased the damage output of almost pure-Trasher builds.

So when rushing solo he wouldn't be much of a threat (statistically-speaking!). When in a common scenario of a single ally next to him it would be the current 50/50 chance, while he would deal a guaranteed 4 damage when flanked by allies from 3 sides.

Grits
03-04-2013, 12:17 AM
Interesting. Well, something should change, we will see if and what.

scase
03-04-2013, 03:10 AM
I don't mind the missing part. I just think the skill in using him comes from positioning. But there is no point doing all that work when your just going to miss or hit armor most of the time on that last hit, which can loose you the game.

But that's the thing, the way the class is made/balanced is the first 3 hits are meant to be your guaranteed attacks chancing to bypass armor while the last hit is meant to be more of a bonus. What you are suggesting turns the entire class on it's head.

Not to mention in my experience the ability 9/10 is only used when the Thrashers str is so low he's no use anymore. Spending that much time, effort, and multiple moves to surround an enemy would be spent better just attacking the enemy directly with others.

franknarf
03-04-2013, 05:37 AM
@scase: I think the central trait of the Thrasher is an uncertain outcome, but allowing for a 100% bonus from the RNG (as when you have two adjacent allies and make the last hit for 3 dmg) is too much. Why would which hits count towards the overall outcome matter? I suppose allowing the less useful hits to miss makes it quite a bit stronger against Shieldbangers, but they could lower the %-to-hit to balance it out.

Also, can I paraphrase your second argument as: "I see the Thrasher's ability currently being used in ways that are uninteresting and non-tactical; let's keep it that way!"? :)

@piotras: I remember your suggestion, but prefer Grits' proposal for no particularly good reason...maybe because I like the feature of hitting armor instead of strength and having a big payoff on the last hit...

Tirean
03-04-2013, 06:05 AM
I propose instead of changing the random factor of the thrasher bloody flail that instead they remake the thrasher ability completely into something new :) id like that!

Gramalian
03-04-2013, 01:28 PM
Isn't the point of the ability that regardless of his strength lvls hes going to do 4-5-6+ damage to something depending on the lvl of his ability and placement? I love the thrasher as is right now, though some of the other classes seem stronger or I should say more obviously strong and that goes for a lot of the different troop types. Warriors for instance seem to be slightly too good especially the non warleader types but that could be do to the lack of higher ranks for the others which might have more subtle power but just if not more potent if used correctly ala warleader going to global at rank 3.

Anyway, it might be a good idea to tone down some other things instead of buffing the thrasher to avoid what seems to me at least, to be a significant advantage in heavy melee/all melee builds. Note, I don't want heavy range or all range to be better.

scase
03-04-2013, 02:26 PM
@scase: I think the central trait of the Thrasher is an uncertain outcome, but allowing for a 100% bonus from the RNG (as when you have two adjacent allies and make the last hit for 3 dmg) is too much. Why would which hits count towards the overall outcome matter? I suppose allowing the less useful hits to miss makes it quite a bit stronger against Shieldbangers, but they could lower the %-to-hit to balance it out.

Also, can I paraphrase your second argument as: "I see the Thrasher's ability currently being used in ways that are uninteresting and non-tactical; let's keep it that way!"? :)


I fail to see how whittling down a units Str while leaving it's Arm high and using the Thrashers ability to potentially finish him off requires no tactics. Remember just because YOU don't like a particular strategy doesn't make it any less viable.

As for why the first 3 hitting are more important is pretty simple. You don't know what you're getting, you don't know if it's gonna be armor or strength you're taking out. Which plays in nicely to the randomness of the attack and character. If you basically relegate the ability to do nothing more than be a guaranteed massive str hit if you set up your units correctly not only does it make it a potentially overpowered attack ENTIRELY negating the whole point of armor being in the game but it waters down the ability as well.

franknarf
03-04-2013, 05:47 PM
Hrm, I didn't realize you were describing something you did intentionally (planning around thrashing when near death). It's not that I don't like the strategy, but rather that I didn't realize it *was* a strategy. :) I've only played one person who did that, and it was, indeed, interesting. However, it would be more interesting if all the features of the ability came into play, including the adjacency bonus. As you say, right now, it's generally optimal to just pay no attention to it:

in my experience[...]Spending that much time, effort, and multiple moves to surround an enemy would be spent better just attacking the enemy directly with others.

I agree that a huge guaranteed strength hit is not good (that's what we had earlier in beta, and it was overpowered), but I also don't like a huge non-guaranteed hit.

And I still don't get your point about the order of the hits. Sure, let's have some part guaranteed and some part bonus/random. But why do you care which comes first and regard switching them as turning "the entire class on its head"?

scase
03-05-2013, 02:05 AM
Hrm, I didn't realize you were describing something you did intentionally (planning around thrashing when near death). It's not that I don't like the strategy, but rather that I didn't realize it *was* a strategy. :) I've only played one person who did that, and it was, indeed, interesting. However, it would be more interesting if all the features of the ability came into play, including the adjacency bonus. As you say, right now, it's generally optimal to just pay no attention to it:


I agree that a huge guaranteed strength hit is not good (that's what we had earlier in beta, and it was overpowered), but I also don't like a huge non-guaranteed hit.

And I still don't get your point about the order of the hits. Sure, let's have some part guaranteed and some part bonus/random. But why do you care which comes first and regard switching them as turning "the entire class on its head"?
Well like I mentioned it seems the whole point of the skill isn't to miss or hit, but more be random as to what exactly does hit. So making the first 3 potential misses and the last one guaranteed str makes it a str depleting ability instead of a "I hope this hits armor/str/combo and a potential str hit".

As it it stands now the point of it is for your attack to be a gamble in the first place. In most cases you have a preference as to what you want it to hit, str or arm. But the inherent randomness of it makes you unsure of what the outcome would be.

I'm personally not a huge fan of randomness in this game but I find it fits the motif very well, and taking away the randomness of the first 3 and making the last guaranteed makes it just a boring straight str damaging ability.

A slight change to the ability that might satiate both of us is pretty simple now that I think about it.

Have all hits have a chance to miss. For each miss from the first 3/4/5 the final hit gains a X% chance to hit. Leaving the ability damaging no matter what, and staying balanced as the ranks increased with no real concern of it becoming weak late game.

Rank: 1

Have the 1 arm/str swings work with a 75% chance to hit and the final swing lets say for arguments sake a 40% base hit chance. Each miss of the first 3 swings grants you +20% chance to hit on your final swing. So have oddly bad luck and miss your first 3? Your big str hit is 100% guaranteed.

Rank: 2/3

Same thing as 1 but %'s are slightly modified.

75% chance on normals. 40% on final. Each miss gives 15% and 12% for rank 2 and 3 respectively. So no matter what rank you are using a string of bad luck will still amount to a good hit in the end.

Thoughts?

Zahar
03-05-2013, 02:16 AM
Hm, I started reading and was thinking "buff Thrashers, is he insane?"... but the idea is actually good - wasting the hit that rewards setup is very frustrating and the game should never punish good planing and execution...

franknarf
03-05-2013, 07:41 AM
@scase: I think it's a bit strong to say that we know what "the point of" Bloody Flail is; just sayin'. To my mind, adjacency bonuses come in somewhere...

My problem with the ability as it stands is that careful positioning for the last hit can go unrewarded. I like the OP's suggestion because it does reward positioning and can be balanced by making the early hits godawful. I don't necessarily want (i) a buff that again makes it true that "thrasher's gonna thrash" as in the beta or (ii) to dampen the randomness in favor of STR over ARM damage. Maybe...Grits' suggestion, but with a weaker last hit, like 1 STR solo; 1S+1A with one ally; 2+1 with two; 2+2 with three.

Your proposal is interesting. It's hard to wrap my head around what to expect when the hits are statistically dependent. It dampens the randomness in terms of the number of hits that land, but with respect to the adjacency bonus, only leads to an improvement in the odds that it happens (while I would like to keep the RNG altogether out of the question of whether or not positioning is rewarded).

Keep up the discussion, but I may sit it out a while, as I don't think I have anything useful to contribute on the subject at the moment. :)

gripho
03-05-2013, 03:15 PM
Yeah, I think having the first hits doing random armor/strength damage with a chance to miss, then the last hit having 100% chance but doing a combination of armor and strength damage would prevent the ability from being OP (you can always adjust the miss chance for the first hits to fine tune balance) and still always reward careful position planning.

Also, we could then change the armor/strength damage combination on the last hit for higher ability levels to compensate the miss chance on the additional hits provided:
for exemple, on the last hit level 2 ability could do 2STR with 1 ally, 2STR+1ARM for 2 allies and 3STR+1ARM for 3 allies, and level 3 could do 2STR for 1 ally, 3STR for 2 allies and 4STR for 3 allies.

Gramalian
03-05-2013, 04:04 PM
The only thing that really needs to change is the ability of the thrashers ability to hit a pool that isnt there. I had a 1 hp thrasher use its ability on a warhawk who had 0 def( 1 from shield wall) and all of its hits hit the empty armor pool. That is just not ok when just 1 hit to HP would of stopped the hawk from killing on his turn which was the next one. In short, the ability should ONLY hit armor if there is natural armor in the pool, not +1 from shield wall.

That way you can control the ability a bit by lowering the targets armor down to where he has more hits then armor.

If you really wnted to buff the ability you could also make it take into account the armor lvls on its last hit so if you dropped his armor by 3 points down under your Strength his last shot should do +3 damage. At least that way you dont care if or maybe want his first attacks to hit armor.

scase
03-07-2013, 12:33 AM
The only thing that really needs to change is the ability of the thrashers ability to hit a pool that isnt there. I had a 1 hp thrasher use its ability on a warhawk who had 0 def( 1 from shield wall) and all of its hits hit the empty armor pool. That is just not ok when just 1 hit to HP would of stopped the hawk from killing on his turn which was the next one. In short, the ability should ONLY hit armor if there is natural armor in the pool, not +1 from shield wall.

That way you can control the ability a bit by lowering the targets armor down to where he has more hits then armor.

If you really wnted to buff the ability you could also make it take into account the armor lvls on its last hit so if you dropped his armor by 3 points down under your Strength his last shot should do +3 damage. At least that way you dont care if or maybe want his first attacks to hit armor.

I agree with you that it should never do arm dmg if they have no arm, but if there is no arm and it all goes to str making it guaranteed str seems to make it too reliable.

Gramalian
03-07-2013, 01:02 AM
well its only guaranteed AFTER you took the time to fully deplete armor on the target. I think the current random nature is great, its 3-5+ hits for 1WP that ignores Strength lvls. That is really good imo. I dont even mind the chance to miss the last hist as its more of a powerful bonus on top of the solid 3-5 hits.

My only issue with the guy is that it seems he can hit pools that are not there which results in not only a pointless loss of WP but also a loss of tactical choices leading up to it. If you have a rank 3 thrasher and the target has 3 armor but you have 1 Strength and choose to use flail, and it hits armor 3 times the last 2 hits should hit HP no matter what and the final random hit has to also only target hp but it can still miss.

As far as I know no other ability can outright fail to work or do anything like that one did for me. Can you imagine the threads if a SS's trap didn't work for whatever reason after playing in a way as to force the trap?

scase
03-07-2013, 04:58 PM
well its only guaranteed AFTER you took the time to fully deplete armor on the target. I think the current random nature is great, its 3-5+ hits for 1WP that ignores Strength lvls. That is really good imo. I dont even mind the chance to miss the last hist as its more of a powerful bonus on top of the solid 3-5 hits.

My only issue with the guy is that it seems he can hit pools that are not there which results in not only a pointless loss of WP but also a loss of tactical choices leading up to it. If you have a rank 3 thrasher and the target has 3 armor but you have 1 Strength and choose to use flail, and it hits armor 3 times the last 2 hits should hit HP no matter what and the final random hit has to also only target hp but it can still miss.

As far as I know no other ability can outright fail to work or do anything like that one did for me. Can you imagine the threads if a SS's trap didn't work for whatever reason after playing in a way as to force the trap?

Haha yeah that would cause a shitstorm. I agree with you fully, I just don't know how I feel about a 1str Thrasher potentially being able to hit for like 6-8str for only one WP. Granted there would be a reasonable amount of setup required for that so it could balance it out.