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Galactimus
03-04-2013, 11:14 PM
BACKGROUND
~~~~~~~~~~~
I ended up obtaining Rank #1 on the leader boards the other night (Galactimus_Zero) with 52 wins in a row. I don't have enough time to try and hold such a position so I'll gladly reveal my strategy to the masses. If this post helps the devs balance the game or gives tips to players trying to perfect their own build then I'm glad to be of service!

Screenshot of first place!
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt46/Galactimus_Zero/TheBannerSagaFactions2013-03-0308-55-49-53_zps403bd7a5.png


UNITS
~~~~~~
Warhawk x 2 (Clive and Cliff)
Armor 11
Strength 16
Willpower 2
Exertion 1
Break 1
Note: You don't need armor break or high willpower when you have 16 AoE damage + ripple damage to adjacent units.


Thrasher x 4 (Tic, Tac, Toe, and... Tom!)
Armor 11
Strength 12
Willpower 3
Exertion 1
Break 2
Note: You have to have 2 break and 1 exertion or you'll never break armor fast enough.


STRATEGY
~~~~~~~~~
The four Thrashers are carefully spaced out on the front line so two of them can't be 1 shotted by enemy Warhawks on the very first turn. 11 Armor is the key as you don't want all those enemies with 12 strength to butcher you without dealing armor damage first. 9 Armor just doesn't cut it on the front lines. The Thrashers main job is to lure enemy Warriors within range of your own Warhawks. They also attack Strength if the enemy unit has 9 or less armor. They attack Armor if the unit has 10 or more Armor (to soften them for a Warhawk attack.) And they use Flail if the enemy armor is already low enough but they don't have enough Strength left to bypass it. Maiming archers is also incredibly easy with four Thrashers advancing (parties with 3 Archers are obliterated.)


My Warhawks remain 1-2 tiles from the front line and stay out of enemy Warrior range. In the first few turns they avoid taking damage at all costs. They never move ahead of my Thrashers. They are my key to victory. The only unit that poses a serious threat to them are enemy Varls. Everyone else has to break the Warhawks armor first. I only rush my Warhawks into battle if I can maim an enemy Varl or double kill two high Strength units at the same time with a Warhawk Whirlwind. This entire strategy hinges on my Warhawks and Thrashers maiming enemy Warriors before taking too much damage. If an enemy Warrior can use 2 exertion for movement then I have to be extra careful as mine only have 1 exertion. Figure out the enemy Warrior movement range at the very start of battle. Use strategic Thrasher placement if these Warriors can use 2 Exertion.


I always leave enemy units with 1 HP remaining. Always. I don't care if its a Thrasher or Archer. Some people disagree with me and that's fine. I've even received hate mail for being a proud supporter of the "1HP Maiming Religion." But this strategy obviously works considering my leaderboard position. Making the enemy waste turns with 1HP units is far more beneficial then letting 10HP units beat the life out of you every single turn. I'd rather let a 1HP Thrasher or Archer hit me every so often for 3-4 damage then let that 12 Strength unit continue his rampage every other turn.


The rest of it boils down to mastering the basics:

- Knowing what every unit is capable of. The range and quirks of every ability.
- Outwitting Sky Arrow users. Never move your Warhawk into possible Sky Arrow traps when a high STR unit is in a position to take advantage of your blunder.
- Perfecting unit placement on different maps. The front lines are CLOSER on some maps then others which can allow enemy Warriors the extra tile they need to rush you on Turn 1.


COLOR KILLS
~~~~~~~~~~~~
And to end this super long post with something silly I've even won matches by purchasing the Thrasher and Warhawk alternate colors off of the store. I decked my Warhawks out in the Red outfit and my Thrashers in the Bloodred outfit. These are amazing red outfits with white trim that match each other perfectly. And from the enemies perspective even your banner and unit cursors are red. 90% of the time I started a match with these six color-coordinated melee units someone would say one of the following:

"I'm actually scared right now. Seriously."
"That line up is extremely intimidating"
"Oh this is just great. What stupid matchmaking."
"Losing to such a stellar color formation isn't really a loss"
"I don't even know where to start with this match up."
Etc.

To which I respond: "Canadians! CHARGE!!"

A mental victory right off the bat certainly doesn't hurt (^_^)v

Finjinimo
03-04-2013, 11:44 PM
To which I respond: "Canadians! CHARGE!!"

A mental victory right off the bat certainly doesn't hurt (^_^)v

Excellent. Also, the rest of the post was very informative too.

quartex
03-04-2013, 11:56 PM
Very informative post. Is it bad that you can be so effective with only 2 types of units? I'm not sure. I believe that ideally a more diverse team should be able to adapt and beat a less diverse one, but I know there's a lot more to winning than just team composition. Perhaps getting really good with 2 units makes it easier to beat opponents who are trying to balance and figure out how to use 6 different units. I'm not trying to diminish your obvious skill, I'm just curious what this says about the strategy of Factions. Congratulations in 52 wins in a row, that's very impressive.

P.S. I find it interesting that despite their recent nerf, you found 4 thrashers more effective than 4 backbiters. Do thrashers have better stats, or do you find bloody flail still more effective than backbiting?

Galactimus
03-05-2013, 12:48 AM
I have never once purchased or used any of the following classes:

-Backbiter
-Raidmaster

-Warleader

-Provoker
-Shieldmaster
-Strongarm

-Skystriker
-Bowmaster
-Siege Archer


On my very first day I decided to buy a second Warrior for 50 renown (whoops) because I thought It'd be cool to have a lot of Varls in one party. When I realized you could only have two Varls I deleted my Shieldbearer. After a 16 win streak my team looked like this:

- Warmaster
- Warmaster
- Thrasher
- Thrasher
- Archer
- Archer


After realizing how easy it was to crush Archers by using high Strength / Armor units I deleted my Archers for two more Thrashers. I then purchased the color pack for my Warmasters and even though the Blacksmith color "appears" red in the selection screen its actually a light brown in battle. I immediately sent my Warmasters to the barracks to rot for their color insubordination. I then decided to recruit two Warhawks simply because they could sport an amazing red color. And that is how my team was built (^_^)v


I learned all of the class abilities by simply playing against them. I honestly don't know if Backbiters are better then Thrashers. To be honest I kind of like remaining stationary while using Bloody Flail as my Thrashers are usually placed in strategic locations - protecting my Warhawks, trapping enemy Varls, giving Shield Walls bonuses etc. And well.. Thrashers and Warhawks just look so damn cool together when they sport the color red!!


The Canadian Army of Awesome:
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt46/Galactimus_Zero/TheBannerSagaFactions2013-03-0501-09-15-18_zps8c71c373.png


As you can see my Thrashers take all the damage. Warhawks come in when the enemy Varls are ready to be neutered. Enemy has to move tons of units with only 1-3 Strength remaining. He never gets a chance to use his heavy hitters:
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt46/Galactimus_Zero/TheBannerSagaFactions2013-03-0501-22-24-98_zps4105a495.png


His 1 HP Archers and Thrashers don't even tickle. Another completely dominated match. Sometimes I don't even lose a unit. 20 turns were wasted because he had obsolete units to move around:
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt46/Galactimus_Zero/TheBannerSagaFactions2013-03-0501-24-34-51_zpsc8b80c0b.png

sweetjer
03-05-2013, 01:54 AM
I also choose units based off color coordination. That said, the build you picked is probably my least favorite to play against. When I first started my friend refused to utilize any other team than the one you have here (except it was pre-lasthitnerf, pre-12 str, so he put everything in armor and relied off the guaranteed direct damage that thrasher used to have/still has to some extent). Reading this gave me flashbacks, and now I'm rocking back and forth in the shower crying and trying to wash away the memories of frustration and defeat.

Zahar
03-05-2013, 02:07 AM
I think this kind of radical build is actually good to the game.

My favorite build in the beta was 4 BBs and 2 WHs.

If people start using builds like this, shield varls will actually become useful, etc. Then archers will become more important. And the metagame will start to shape.

sweetjer
03-05-2013, 03:14 AM
I don't think pure thrasher builds should be removed from the game necessarily (though I would probably support a cap to 3 rank1's of the same type in any case, for the sake of variety), but I think they should nerf armor on raiders across the board to make them more manageable if they break shield wall. As it stands, I rarely put my TH in formation until the endgame when he's hobbled, but 4 TH can be high armor w/ shield wall, high str threat, and endgame match-changers. I've said all along that I don't think TH utility should be reduced, just their survivability. I kind of feel bad posting balance opinions in this build thread, but it's kind of the perfect place for it. Very nice build thread, btw, I hope we see more of these write-ups from you Galacticus.

piotras
03-05-2013, 04:58 AM
Nice name for the thread ;)

Congrats and thanks for sharing Galacticus! Hopefully we can have similar builds in game, however I do hope that this will be used as a case study by Stoic to look more closely at 4 BBs/THs builds.

Lekkit
03-05-2013, 06:55 AM
Proud to be one of your 52 wins. ;)

As I said when I faced this. I really think it's a cool build. I don't think it's invincible, nor overpowered. I do think this is a really solid build that requires skill to conquer, though. And the better the player fielding it, the harder it will be. When friend challenges are available, I'll be happy to play people using this build to see if it can be beaten.

piotras
03-05-2013, 07:24 AM
Proud to be one of your 52 wins. ;)

As I said when I faced this. I really think it's a cool build. I don't think it's invincible, nor overpowered. I do think this is a really solid build that requires skill to conquer, though. And the better the player fielding it, the harder it will be. When friend challenges are available, I'll be happy to play people using this build to see if it can be beaten.
I've beaten builds like that before, the problem from the beginning of beta is that it makes mediocre players do very well and in the hands of good players it leads to 50+ win streaks ;)

Phantom
03-05-2013, 09:13 AM
First place eh? Well done. Played you twice, a bit sad that neither of them we're really good matches. Oh well, I'm sure we'll have a solid rubber match at some point.

djangoc
03-05-2013, 10:04 AM
Are you finding that you end up finishing guys off using the Thrasher ability or not? If not, 4 BB is way better and useful. It also makes going up against archer teams even easier with BBs.

Galactimus
03-05-2013, 05:34 PM
Compare both units placed into a similar situation:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You're up against a Shieldmaster with 10 Armor and 1 Strength. Your unit has 1 Armor and 1 Strength left. The Shieldmaster is going to kill you with his 100% Chance to hit next turn. Your own units chance to hit with a regular attack this turn is a pitiful 10%.


A) Your unit is a Backbiter. To increase your chances of survival you decide to use Run Through. You deal 2 armor damage with the first hit which gives your final strike a 30% chance to hit. (8 Armor versus your 1 Strength.) You've increased your odds but that Shieldmaster is going to beat you 7 out of 10 times.


B) Your unit is a Thrasher. His ability has 100% Accuracy with his first three swings and a 50% chance to hit Strength with each. Therefore you have an 87.5% chance to finish off the Shieldmaster this turn using Bloody Flail (1 - 0.50^3 = 0.875). And that's NOT including the Thrashers fourth swing. If that swing also hits then you have a 93.75% chance to win. You're going to beat that Shieldmaster almost every single time.


Therefore: The Backbiter is not ALWAYS a better choice; especially when your unit is maimed. Maybe Backbiters are better overall in more situations. Maybe I've inadvertently given myself a Thrasher handicap. I don't really know. But Thrashers are very strong in the end game. In my strategy that's very important; as my Thrashers are a bloody mess by the time my Warhawks arrive yet they're still able to provide solid damage output at this stage.

GreenDread
03-05-2013, 06:11 PM
The nasty thing about multiple thrashers (and WHs in the back) is that maiming/hobbling the thrashers isnt really effective.
Usually you can kill that one thrasher, because there are still other units to be maimed and turn advantage stays in control. But with this... These canadian vikings are intimidating. Guess you must find a way to block and hobble both WHs before they can start their killing spree.

djangoc
03-05-2013, 08:15 PM
You have to focus fire every thrasher until a WH comes into range and focus it. Very cool strategy.

mrpresident
03-05-2013, 08:26 PM
This build has been around since early beta and it is nasty as hell, the fact that it's still this good even after the big thrasher nerf(s) is a testament to that.

That said just like in beta people will eventually wisen up to how to fight it, it's not unbeatable, a well-played high-exertion team in particular would give your build a run for its money, but in the meantime enjoy your stomps :P

RadioactiveMan
03-05-2013, 11:07 PM
Nicely done. I agree that this build is nasty but not unbeatable. High exertion archers and raiders should be able to get at your 1 exertion warhawks before they can do a full strength hit, and shieldbangers are an effective counter for your thrashers.

I'm less impressed by the 52 win streak than I am by the elo ranking- In my experience as a reasonably good player, only about 1 in 20 games are really competitive right now- there are a lot players out there who are still figuring out how to play. Also, a build with six melee units will tend to shred a build with 2 archers and four melee... I think that most new players don't realize how hard/important it is to protect archers against a melee heavy build. There is an excess of 2 archer builds currently, because of the units that Stoic gives you when you start: New players are learning to use 2 archers and to fight against 2 archers... they have a tough time when an opponent mixes it up.

Alex
03-06-2013, 02:30 AM
Thanks Galactimus! We've seen a bunch of builds like this one (the other most popular replaces thrashers with backbiters and warhawks with warmasters). We've also seen both tournament winners so far running balanced teams. The only thing I haven't seen much is archer-heavy teams being competitively effective, and though that's a shame it may also be a good thing, because if everyone played archer-heavy teams I could see it being downright obnoxious. All in all, it sounds like you've found a good strategy and it's working for you. Cheers!

OldManBobson
03-07-2013, 02:03 PM
I am not a good player, I am still learning the game, but I've been crushing much more technicallly skilled players with this tactic. It's a noobie cannon, for certain.

OldManBobson
03-07-2013, 03:13 PM
Expounding on what I like about it..

1) I love the aggressive pressure you put on the other team. sending in the thrashers, always pushing them up, while having the warhawks lurking in the wings, is very stressful on the other team.

2) I think the warhawks are far superior to warmasters. I don't think the extra point of health is worth the nightmare you cause for your opponents positioning. The spin requires opponents to constantly worry about positioning against them, and I think the benefit of that, given the short amount of time you have to act, is worth it. If they make a mistake, the game is over. If they don't, they are using mental resources on positioning and have a tactical disadvantage.

3) Conversely, I love not having to worry about archer positioning, and constantly having to defend them. As someone new to the game, and this kind of game in general, it is very difficult for me to get maximum out of archer units, and trying to take care of them takes up mental energy. Perhaps once I'm more used to the game, I will be able to use them effectively, but as of now, 2/2 seems like a liability compared to 4 raider unit

mouton
03-07-2013, 11:01 PM
I haven't played this game for long, but isn't this setup what people call "melee spam"? An old and generally cheap tactic?

Speaking of protecting archers against melee-heavy build - I totally agree, while you can afford losing them against a mixed build, puncture is the only thing that keeps you afloat in the mid-late game when fighting a melee crowd. This seems a bit unbalanced, because it is much harder to set up a powerful puncture than just, say, run up with a thrasher and chop someone's face off.

DThrasher
03-07-2013, 11:27 PM
This build, and the variants Alex mentioned, are absolutely brutal to play against. I'm still struggling to find a strategy that counters it if I'm playing with a balanced team. I'd love to hear some ideas for counters!

Especially having been trounced by the Canadian horde myself. :)

OldManBobson
03-08-2013, 04:05 AM
It's very difficult to handle. Ideally you'd like to go after the 'Hawks, but they are maxed out on armor and life, and put in a tactical position lurking on the wings that's difficult to engage. Thrashers are a nightmare too, because even when they are low health, they are still useful with their ability, so maiming isn't as effective as it might normally be.


The most trouble I have are against skilled players that are very good with max armor seige archers. 10 armor makes them much more difficult for thrashers burn down, and their skill and 2 armor crack means they can really wear you down as you come in on them.

kovyrus
03-09-2013, 09:53 AM
4 raiders and 2 warriors is overpowered build imho. But there is way to counter: 4 archers in the corner covered by 2 shield varls:
AASS
AASS
SS
SS
Imho it is absolutely broken part of game that archers can stand in the corner untouchable. When I played against this build I just skipped turns because attacking this formation is suicide. But my opponent skipped turns too. Imho game should be designed in a such way that there is no such situations.

mouton
03-09-2013, 10:20 AM
4 raiders and 2 warriors is overpowered build imho. But there is way to counter: 4 archers in the corner covered by 2 shield varls:
AASS
AASS
SS
SS
Imho it is absolutely broken part of game that archers can stand in the corner untouchable. When I played against this build I just skipped turns because attacking this formation is suicide. But my opponent skipped turns too. Imho game should be designed in a such way that there is no such situations.
Well, if you have archers yourself, you can harass the shieldbangers without going into enemy archer range. Or spam the whole thing with Siege Archer.

Doesn't change the fact that a build should not be only counterable by a specific anti-build.

OldManBobson
03-09-2013, 03:01 PM
lol 4 archers 2 shield would be useless against any other build though, so it's a moot point.


One thing I see a lot of people do against me with this build is turtle and wait for me to engage. This is a really bad Idea. It concedes to me when and how the engagement is going to happen, allows me to circle and position myself perfectly, and allows me to control the center of the map with my Hawks. Basically, turltling is just hoping I make a mistake in how I engage.

I'm not sure what the correct strat is against the build,but I know sitting back and waiting for me to perfectly position myself isn't it.


And this build is absolutely broken. I'm now 19th on the ladder, and there's just no way I'm the 19th best player of this game.

sweetjer
03-09-2013, 04:04 PM
Yeah OMB you are spot on. People tend to hang back in fear from your type of build. As you saw, the solution (imo anyway) is to rush in, 1st hit, set up smart blocking, and field an SS! Worked when we played last time anyways ;) also, I like your 12 str thrasher staggered set up...at first I was scared, it looked like you were just gonna steam roll over me and prevent my WM from Sundering the whole time.

loveboof
03-10-2013, 10:34 AM
I have never once purchased or used any of the following classes:

-Backbiter
-Raidmaster

-Warleader

-Provoker
-Shieldmaster
-Strongarm

-Skystriker
-Bowmaster
-Siege Archer


Hi.

I don't mean to sound harsh here (and you are obviously much better at the game than me), but isn't it a bit dull to never experiment with different builds and classes?

You have played a lot of matches and I assume they mostly develop in the same kind of way...

Is it that you don't want to risk breaking your immense win streak? or do you just enjoy winning more than varied gameplay (in a min/max sort of way)?

Anyway, I apologise if you are offended by this - I do appreciate you sharing your tactics with us :)

Galactimus
03-10-2013, 12:28 PM
No worries loveboof!

I never played the beta so my first 50 matches were purely experimental. I found out quickly that I didn't like Archers, I loved Warriors, and I preferred to maim everything in existence. Thus I decided to field Warmasters and Thrashers. "Maiming my enemy while fielding units that have no problem being maimed." This huge advantage in the turn order is how I beat players of higher skill while I was still learning the mechanics of the game.

I didn't care for the leaderboards at all until I found out I had a 40 game win streak. It was just a very aggressive build that I had a lot of fun playing. But most of all I'm a HUGE fan of the color scheme. If every unit type had a red color option available I'd probably be more open to experimenting with other units. *hint hint TBS marketing*

Tirean
03-10-2013, 12:58 PM
Red thrashers for life bro!

Gogo red team!

ishouldbeatwork
03-11-2013, 04:01 PM
Hey! I ran a very similar setup when I got my streak (I think I'm still around there with a 51 streak as well ^_^ ). I was mostly using 3 Backbiters, a Skystriker and 2 Warmasters, but I ran a lot of different combinations in order to level up more units and get to a point where I could build just about level 1 combination. I suppose in this way I'm very different from Galactimus because I have 1-2 of every level 1 unit in the game, and I wasn't trying most of them out only because the melee build was proving to be so successful. I'm not that good at the game either, I just basically had the luck to have most of my games when people were learning about the game and grinding renown in order to customize their armies.

Going back to the topic, it seems a lot of people are opting to go for melee heavy armies, which makes sense given that it's a solid build that is easy to play. I'm really looking forward to seeing people use other units effectively, especially the Warleader, which I think has the potential to make other combinations stand up to an all melee army if you're smart enough (I haven't been able to, at least yet!). Hopefully more people will try out new and cool combinations soon =)

Going to try and get another shieldmaster to level 1 now, hard to get the kills with him playing as underdog =(

loveboof
03-11-2013, 05:27 PM
No worries loveboof!

I never played the beta so my first 50 matches were purely experimental. I found out quickly that I didn't like Archers, I loved Warriors, and I preferred to maim everything in existence. Thus I decided to field Warmasters and Thrashers. "Maiming my enemy while fielding units that have no problem being maimed." This huge advantage in the turn order is how I beat players of higher skill while I was still learning the mechanics of the game.

I didn't care for the leaderboards at all until I found out I had a 40 game win streak. It was just a very aggressive build that I had a lot of fun playing. But most of all I'm a HUGE fan of the color scheme. If every unit type had a red color option available I'd probably be more open to experimenting with other units. *hint hint TBS marketing*
Well fair enough! Thanks for explaining :)

RobertTheScott
03-12-2013, 07:42 PM
Holy crap that's a horrible build to play against. This is the first game that I've truly not enjoyed, and I've played my share of games where I killed 1-2 units. (Of course, if I recall correctly my opponent never did less than 3 STR damage in many, many bloody flails, so it could be I got slightly unlucky.)

Of course, this is to say nothing against Canada or Galactimus. Fun is subjective. But MAN am I glad this is being nerfed through unit caps. I've played against 4 backbiters, and got beat, but it is not the same thing at all. The difference is that maiming backbiters actually decreases their effectiveness. Maiming thrashers only creates a short pause before the Warhawks start killing people, at which point the thrashers become 3 str per turn destroy-everything machines.

tl;dr: [insert expletive of choice here]!

Kazthefirst
03-13-2013, 01:46 AM
Hey RobertTheScott,

Can you give any insight on your tactical "Do's and Don'ts?"

I just took apart a player who was using this set-up pretty handily and I'm not sure if I see the tactical strengths being exploited (or maybe not exploited, in this case). It's not just the red-theme, I hope?

I actually tossed him some units to kill at the end so he could at least get some kills on his last Warhawk and some extra renown.

I only win about half of my games, so it's not like I'm a great player.

SeraphimLoki
03-14-2013, 12:20 PM
I just got in a fight with that guy using that "tactic". I had it all controlled. I was left with 3 archers full health and a raidmaster 8s/9h he just had a warmaster 5shield/16hp and one trasher 11/12. The warmaster died qucikly (doing minor dmg before( but trasher killed everyone in my team. Something gotto be done about it.
@RobertTheScott
Same here i didnt enjoy it at all, i got him blocked all the time and shoot with my archers. He just stood there and bleed my shieldmaster then i didnt even had a chance to run.

trisenk
03-14-2013, 01:06 PM
I just got in a fight with that guy using that "tactic". I had it all controlled. I was left with 3 archers full health and a raidmaster 8s/9h he just had a warmaster 5shield/16hp and one trasher 11/12. The warmaster died qucikly (doing minor dmg before( but trasher killed everyone in my team. Something gotto be done about it.
This obviously has nothing to do with with the topic (4xTS/BB 2WM/WH), since your problems started at 1xWM 1xTS. You've just played the endgame badly and/or had bad stat distribution on archers.

RobertTheScott
03-15-2013, 01:06 AM
Hey RobertTheScott,

Can you give any insight on your tactical "Do's and Don'ts?"

I suppose, based on the forums here, that my team may simply have a massive weakness against thrashers.

I tend to run a balanced build centered around (of all things) a pair of raidmasters. They go up the center, being unhurtable and challenging the opponent. Then I have a strongarm to break up enemy formations, a backbiter (or at least I did have--and sticking with it for now) to take out high value targets (i.e. archers), and a warhawk for mopup. Filling out the group is a bowmaster, who takes advantage of the fact that my team is rather good at destroying armor.

My last two games against the thrasher build had very different (and equally disastrous)tactics. First I kept up my formation, maimed the thrashers--and then started killing them as their 3 damage flails got very annoying very fast. I left the last thrasher alive at little health and no exertion, but when the warhawks moved in on my maimed team...he had plenty of exertion to blow on my archer and other units.

The second game felt like it was against a less skilled player. His warhawks were far less protected--near the front lines, in fact!--and I managed to quickly maim one and shortly thereafter maim the other. To do so I had to let his axemen get hits on my own warhawk (since I couldn't play my normal formation-based game but had to rush his powerhouses), and eventually a 2 health thrasher maimed my full health full armor archer.

In both these games, there was never a point where I felt like I was winning or had the momentum.

Zahar
03-20-2013, 01:22 PM
4 raiders and 2 warriors is overpowered build imho. But there is way to counter: 4 archers in the corner covered by 2 shield varls:
AASS
AASS
SS
SS
Imho it is absolutely broken part of game that archers can stand in the corner untouchable. When I played against this build I just skipped turns because attacking this formation is suicide. But my opponent skipped turns too. Imho game should be designed in a such way that there is no such situations.

Use some raidmasters and 2 WM or WHs.

Yeah, counters.

GreenDread
03-20-2013, 09:08 PM
In that case, you could rather easily avoid to place units in the archers range, while attacking the shieldbangers with your own archers from a safe distance. Though it is a really fun-killing strategy.

khct
03-23-2013, 03:20 AM
I think there's real potential with SS to control WHs

I was playing against a 2WH, 3TH ,SA team with my 2WH, TH, BB, SA, SS team, and i really wash't sweating at all. The SS controlled one of the WH's movement so i can send in one of my WH earlier to deal his THs and maim his other WH. But I made a major mistake when i wanted to take off 5 armor on his un-maimed WH with my 3 exertion SA, but i press the wrong thing and did a normal 2Arm(noooooo!!), and that ultimately cost me the game.

I am generally good with my trap placements to keep enemies guessing. The best case is forcing enemy THs to block their own WHs. With the 1 trap is a bit of gamble at times, but rank2 will be even more effective at controlling the field (multiple enemy units). But another thing is sometimes it's hard to work out where to trap in 30s let alone 2 traps (more panicky mistakes?), but is gonna be fun!

Anyways, anyone having success with their SS?

hovercraft
03-23-2013, 04:53 AM
I think there's real potential with SS to control WHs

I was playing against a 2WH, 3TH ,SA team with my 2WH, TH, BB, SA, SS team, and i really wash't sweating at all. The SS controlled one of the WH's movement so i can send in one of my WH earlier to deal his THs and maim his other WH. But I made a major mistake when i wanted to take off 5 armor on his un-maimed WH with my 3 exertion SA, but i press the wrong thing and did a normal 2Arm(noooooo!!), and that ultimately cost me the game.

I am generally good with my trap placements to keep enemies guessing. The best case is forcing enemy THs to block their own WHs. With the 1 trap is a bit of gamble at times, but rank2 will be even more effective at controlling the field (multiple enemy units). But another thing is sometimes it's hard to work out where to trap in 30s let alone 2 traps (more panicky mistakes?), but is gonna be fun!

Anyways, anyone having success with their SS?

Indeed, I sometimes run 2 SS, good in restrainig enemy WH, and because of enemy's cautious movent keeps them in good shape for lategame.

raven2134
03-23-2013, 05:16 AM
Stoic has mentioned the upcoming rank 2/3 Rain of Arrows will not be for multiple tiles, and instead do more damage to the single tile only.

Serum
03-23-2013, 04:51 PM
Stoic has mentioned the upcoming rank 2/3 Rain of Arrows will not be for multiple tiles, and instead do more damage to the single tile only.One arrow isn't exactly what you could call 'rain'. I was hoping for more arrows, myself.

raven2134
03-23-2013, 06:35 PM
Me too. They're worried about it locking down the board (since you wouldn't want to move once 3 arrows are up in the air. I'm still trying to think of a working alternative myself :)>

erom
03-23-2013, 07:29 PM
Yeah, I'm sad it won't be multi-tile, because I was super excited about that. But I admit I was mostly excited because it was going to be super powerful.

The only alternative I can think off would be for you to mark multiple squares, but only have a single arrow fall - IE you can target 3 squares with the ability but once any of those squares are triggered all 3 are removed.

That makes the traps more reliable (since you have more chances to hit) but not more powerful in terms of turn advantage (because it's the stun that really is the powerful part of the ability, not the damage).

raven2134
03-23-2013, 08:49 PM
I had thought of that as well. Let's throw it at the devs and see what they think :).

mrpresident
03-23-2013, 11:59 PM
Another possible method would be to require all additional arrows be placed adjacent to another arrow, that way you couldn't block off multiple "paths" in 1 turn, but you could make the 1 path you're trying to block more secure.

Btw, sorry I've disappeared without a trace lately, lots of real-life stuff's been happening.

khct
03-24-2013, 04:50 AM
Stoic has mentioned the upcoming rank 2/3 Rain of Arrows will not be for multiple tiles, and instead do more damage to the single tile only.

In that case i think it make sense to add armor dmg to it.
But what ever they do, i wonder if 1 trap tile is good enough to stick with SS.

Another idea would be to trap multiple tiles but only 1 will stun, while the other will do dmg but can be run through. Is that a viable idea?

Serum
03-26-2013, 06:02 PM
Another possible method would be to require all additional arrows be placed adjacent to another arrow, that way you couldn't block off multiple "paths" in 1 turn, but you could make the 1 path you're trying to block more secure.I like this quite a bit.

Arnie
03-27-2013, 08:16 PM
Some of these ideas could work, but we're currently really interested in turning the SS into a one strike killer. If the SS shoots 3 arrows into the air at rank 3 then you may think twice before "fishing" for them, as is currently a fun game. I suggest that that much firepower in the air may be more than enough to make an entire team not move for fear of tripping it.
I've played plenty of games now where I've hit and been hit by multiple RoA's in one match, if they were rank 3 RoA's it'd be devastating.
I think this way of handling RoA will actually heighten the tension more than if she shot at multiple different tiles because now she can single handedly drop a unit if played well.

Ninjineer
03-27-2013, 09:44 PM
Some of these ideas could work... I suggest that that much firepower in the air may be more than enough to make an entire team not move for fear of tripping it.

Even next to each other, multiple arrows could be very scary. The willpower investment wouldn't be far off from a Raidmaster wall, but there would be tremendous power in, y'know, not actually needing the Raidmasters to be there. :p In limited spaces it could be just as chilling as the original version, and that could greatly restrict any future map design.


...we're currently really interested in turning the SS into a one strike killer.

Interesting; that sounds like a good way to make a high-skill, high-risk unit - those folk in favor of gambling mechanics over in the deployment thread will love it, I'd wager. ;)

raven2134
03-28-2013, 11:05 AM
I'm waiting to play with it before a final opinion. But Ninjineer, that's what I said hahahaha. It's sorta like gambling on RNG XD.

d2r
03-28-2013, 02:35 PM
I wonder - would it be balanced if break was added to ROA at higher levels?

erom
03-29-2013, 08:29 PM
Honestly, most of the time you plan for RoA to miss, so whatever damage it does is wasted, which is why I think buffing the damage is fairly pointless. The point of the ability is usually to force your opponent to change their plans. The only time you actually hit with the ability is against a rather novice player.

At least we have a unit that can stay rank 1 in power 12 tournaments I guess.