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View Full Version : Low exertion issue and some ideas to fix it



Gygu
03-11-2013, 05:47 AM
I've noticed that for most melee classes high exertion isn't very attractive as most of them use their special abilities. Moreover, to effectively use high exertion you need to have more Willpower which also costs points. Therefore it is IMHO better to load up on Armour and Health and leave exertion on 1.
I don't know how the rules changed in beta, but maybe basing WP amount on Exertion stat would make it more interesting? Say:
0 exertion ->1 WP,
1 exertion->3 WP
2 exertion ->5 WP,
3 exertion->7 WP.
This of course would need some points adjustments but not very drastic.
Also, most units could add WP to their special abilities to upgrade the damage/armour breaking, but the total WP on ability you can spend is equal to your exertion. So if a Warmaster with exertion 2 uses Sundering Impact, he can add max 1 additional WP to increase damage to main target.
This could work with most melee units except Warleader, Provoker and Raidmaster (Thrasher could get additional strikes or more damage from the last swing).
I would leave archers as they are, no need to upgrade further their special attacks.
This would mean more units could benefit from high exertion and would provide with more choices to make while designing you build.

raven2134
03-11-2013, 06:59 AM
Hi Gygu, I don't quite understand what you mean in your post.

The way willpower and exertion work, as well as ability costs, is meant to be a choice. The fact that people choose to spec units for ability vs exertion attack/move is intentional, and also introduces balance. Player's aren't meant to have ALL the options but choose among them :)

Gygu
03-11-2013, 07:30 AM
But IMHO none of the melee fighters is worth to invest in willpower/exertion - special abilities are better than normal attacks buffed by WP. And ignoring the exertion you need fewer WP points which means you can buff armour/health. The exertion combo comes handy only if you want range or your fighter is crippled as you have a chance to deal more than 1 damage.

raven2134
03-11-2013, 07:45 AM
I think low exertion builds are as viable as high exertion builds. And this is seen in the game. If you build units that are low on exertion, they are bad at doing burst damage and have a much harder time coping once hurt/maimed. The pro, however, is that low exertion units have high armor/str (meaning the weaknesses of a low exertion build are 1. mobility and 2. armor ignoring attacks).

For high exertion teams, while they do have lower armor/str, they cope better because of the ability to inflict more armor damage using the exertion. This creates setups where some units can be built to break and others to follow up, an effective dynamic. The cons to this however are that 1. They run out of willpower faster and 2. they can be targetted specifically to prevent certain strategies.

I would say you are only looking at things from 1 side, and as you play more and try both builds, as one great player, balnoisi/ambrosio, has done, you'll find it's a matter of preference rather than viability.

netnazgul
03-11-2013, 07:55 AM
But IMHO none of the melee fighters is worth to invest in willpower/exertion - special abilities are better than normal attacks buffed by WP. And ignoring the exertion you need fewer WP points which means you can buff armour/health. The exertion combo comes handy only if you want range or your fighter is crippled as you have a chance to deal more than 1 damage.
You definitely haven't seen 5-6 armor breaks from raiders, have you? :)

High exertion builds are pretty viable, and not only for archers. Raiders profit from high ex not only for their attacks, but mainly for their enormous move range (7 max with 3 exertion) when they become rather dangerous for uncovered archers. Warriors are also profit from exertion in the same way, maybe a bit less useful than for raiders, but still.

Shiri
03-11-2013, 09:12 AM
If anything I'd be more concerned about the opportunity cost of speccing much willpower than exertion. The extra movement range from exertion is pretty good, so it's basically a first-hit stat. But when it comes to willpower, if you're levelling it early on a raider, you're NOT levelling armour or (!!) strength. And the problem with levelling willpower over strength is that it does the same thing but only once. I guess it might be interesting to try loading up RMs or something else with decent break with a bunch of WP and EX and break and then not care if they get maimed and just hope they don't get killed before they can use it all, but is that really likely to match up to the current 9/12 or 12/9 builds? We'll see.

This reasoning all seems pretty flimsy to me even as I'm writing it, so it might just be that people aren't experimenting enough with high wp high exertion builds on units so no one ever finds out how well it works. But I will say that I tend to celebrate when in beta, the devs would do a reset and someone would fail to realise and leave their team comp at the default, which tended to have high wp-skewed stats, because they would be a complete pushover. I think we might just have to settle for having wp as a mostly trap stat, but also maybe later horn designs might make these builds better? Or other classes that can...hijack other units' wp...or something. I don't know, maybe higher ranked abilities will prove to be enough worth it to want a couple extra points of wp, though given RM/BM I doubt it.

InfiniteNutshell
03-11-2013, 11:22 AM
My two cents on exertion: I run a lot of melee units with 2 exertion and 3 or 4 WP. I find in a lot of games, it is really helpful to get 2 extra squares of movement on one critical turn. I can also get more WP once I start killing enemy units in the late game.

RobertTheScott
03-11-2013, 04:37 PM
My two cents on exertion: I run a lot of melee units with 2 exertion and 3 or 4 WP. I find in a lot of games, it is really helpful to get 2 extra squares of movement on one critical turn. I can also get more WP once I start killing enemy units in the late game.

This. Because I have a Warhawk of Doom (Names Brjann, and he'd love to make your acquaintance!), who has low armor and max strength, I really want to keep him safe until the opportune moment. Part of that involves dancing just out of range of the opponents Warmaster/Warhawk. If I have two exertion, and he has 1, I have a massive advantage in terms of mobility. In fact, this one trick won my last game: I was able to spend 2/4 of my willpower to reach the enemy Warmaster, and then spend the other 2 willpower to add 2 bonus damage to him. In one fell swoop I knocked my enemy's most feared unit from full health to an insignificant annoyance.

For the rest of the game, I killed people with my archer to refill my horn, then used the horn to trigger my Warhawk's friendly spin-dance of Tempest. (Fun! Please join Brjann in this grand celebration of life and death--he will be much obliged! 120 of his fellow warriors speak highly of this festivity from their honored place in Valhalla.) But it was all triggered by the movement and initial damage of spending all his willpower in one turn

tl;dr: There are more willpower uses on Heaven and Earth than are dreamed of in your philosophies.