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leiloca
03-18-2013, 06:07 PM
Hey guys,

This game is all about ranks so far. Only pvp, ranks is what matters. How do I reset my rank? If it is not possible to reset and try again, whats the point of playing this game?

Thx,
Leiloca

Zomnivore
03-18-2013, 06:27 PM
If you believe you're at the bottom of the barrel your improved strategy should naturally progress you to higher opponents as you win more then losing.

Accept your fail own it, and then move on homey. Also the game is all about strategy having a good time talking to your opponent bro. If you don't have fun stateger-izing it up then maybe the genres not right for you atm.

leiloca
03-18-2013, 06:50 PM
If you believe you're at the bottom of the barrel your improved strategy should naturally progress you to higher opponents as you win more then losing.

Accept your fail own it, and then move on homey. Also the game is all about strategy having a good time talking to your opponent bro. If you don't have fun stateger-izing it up then maybe the genres not right for you atm.

I'm saying this not only because of me, but because a lot of ppl like me wont be playing if the only point is ranking. Don't be naive enough to think everyone is a wonder-fan just like you. Ppl want a chance to win. If they dont have a chance to win, they wont play the game anymore. Besides, stat reset would be a rule for everyone, which means everyone would still have equal chances.

Just saying anyway.

raven2134
03-18-2013, 07:11 PM
I dont quite understand, what does competitive rank have to with "having a chance to win"? Isn't the relationship in reverse...you improve your ranking by winning, not improve your chances to win by ranking?

Yojimbo
03-18-2013, 07:23 PM
The more pressing issue for me is about being able to temporarily downgrade units to rank 1 for tournaments. I perhaps got a little excited about leveling my raidmasters. Now the only way I can use RMs in a tournament is to buy new rank one units. I know its not that much renown, but I could end up with roster of identical units at different ranks for use in the various tournaments.

Apologies if you can actually do this -or if it's in the works - and I've missed it!

leiloca
03-18-2013, 07:32 PM
I dont quite understand, what does competitive rank have to with "having a chance to win"? Isn't the relationship in reverse...you improve your ranking by winning, not improve your chances to win by ranking?

I explained myself badly. By having a chance to win I mean having a chance to climb the ranks. People with 20 hours per day will climb Wins rank. Hardcore / theorycrafting players will climb the "Win/Losses" rank as well as Kill Streak ranks. There is no place for a casual gamer to be engaged this way. I'm just trying to express my point of view as a casual gamer. There is no point for me to go back to the game. What's the point? PVP griding? That's something new for me. I really like this game, i bought the eternal boost as well as some color stuff in order to support the developers. But there should be some kind of rank reset. Even if it's like not for me personally, but for everyone once a month. When the reset comes, top ranking players are rewarded somehow. So the rank is always temporary. Maybe this could be a third rank besides all-time and tournament. I don't know.

Blood Brothers, for instance, a similar game to this (on Andoird) has events, like the Tournaments here, but with much more rewards, even for ppl at 30,000# position. This game has so much potential. DEVS, IF YOU ARE READING THIS, PLEASE check how blood brothers do in order to keep ppl playing. Weekly events, rank reset, more rewards. Banner Saga's combat mechanics + Blood Brothers's player engagement = ultimate fun time.

My 2 cents.
Thx,

leiloca
03-18-2013, 07:36 PM
If you reset the ranks every week and reward top players, ppl will play at max potential next week. So the cycles go on and on, and you are always trying to position yourself at the top of the ranks, and your chances are renewed every week! Understand? That's the kind of player engagement mechanics this game will have to implement in order to be sucesful in the long-run.

BTW, im a fan of art, and the art in this game is AWSOME. The User Interface is also amazing. Character customization could be more creative and flexible. I would rate this game a 7.7/10 with potential to go 9.8/10 with player engagement and more developed mechanics. But there is a lot of time for the devs to work here. So no pressure. Just brainstorming.

franknarf
03-18-2013, 07:38 PM
The team has talked about resetting the rankings each "season" (which I guess means after a big change has been made).

As TBS already has weekly tournaments where a moderately casual player can test their mettle (currently, ~1.5 hours each day for five days), it's seems that your only suggestion is to increase rewards in the tourney...? If so, you might want to join the folks discussing that over here (http://stoicstudio.com/forum/showthread.php?1369-About-tournament-rewards).

raven2134
03-18-2013, 07:54 PM
Alright, thanks for clarifying that and for giving an example to look at :). I do think there are stats which as permanent (no resets) sort of stick with you/haunt you even months down the line (w/l ratio for example).

But on rankings I would have to say the game caters well to casuals because of Elo, which is the primary ranking mechanism. Even if the player is casual or starts the game by losing quite a bit, the way Elo works is it rewards winning against players of equal or better skill more.

This means it is easier for new players to climb, and it is very very hard for top players to grind.

A new player can rise 100-200 points in rating within 10 wins. A top player will only gain maybe 20-30 from the same number :).

And sure people can grind stats, but I think achieving a better record in less games show much more on player skill than grinding wins and games to achieve the same result. (well this would be a good argument for employing seasonal play also).

Season play has a good chance of being implemented once the matchmaker has settled down and the game is in a more stable meta.

erom
03-18-2013, 08:16 PM
The problem with re-setting ranks is that it throws the noobs back into the same games as the pros, so they get ripped apart, and give up. The whole point of any ranking system is to provide more competitive matches for everyone. It's like you are training an AI - if you throw out your data periodically, it never learns.

leiloca
03-18-2013, 08:22 PM
Ok, so here are a few Ideas that should be considered in terms of player engagement. The more player engagement, the more they plat, the sorter they interval they will play, and they will buy things to overpower other players, even though you can make it without spending a dime but taking a lil bit longer:

(1) Tournamet rewards, base on the ammount of ppl subscribed to the tornament.
Take, for example, torunament rewards from Blood Brother:

Rank 1-50:
3 x legendary familiars (check explanation below)
10 x scarlet coin pacts (scarlet coins lets u roll new familiars, from rare to legendary, at random, to be added to you roster, and if good enough, to your party of five.
10 x crystal sets. Crystals are used to updrade your familiars status, STR, WIS, AGI, and so on to a max of 10 cysrals on each status. you can crystilize before merging two familiars into a even more powerful one. Its a card-rpg game, amazingly done.

familiars = your troops). They divide familiars into "common" "uncommon" "rare" "elite" and "legendary". Like in a pokemon game, you can evolve two familiars to produce a higher familiar. You can have up to 4 familiars and your wardloard on a party. They have skills also. It's pretty neat system. Anyway, this was just a brief explanation on Bloodbrothers mechanics.

They go on Rank 51 - 200
1 legendary
9 scarket coins
10 cystal sets

200 - 2000
1 event rare familiar
8 scarlet coisa,
8 crystal sets.

This go until rank 50,000 (and believe me, more then 300,000 plyaers world-wide are participating on their events. The event lasts a week. Rewards are distributed from 1 - 50,000 and that is amazing.

There are the following kinds of events, all with new "event" only cards to be rewarded (a #30,000 player ranked can get a rare event card, and that is awsome. He can then trade on the online bazzar for other fams with other players.

-PVP events (most likely SAGA's torunaments)
-RAID events (your in-game allies / friends against huge bosses, prepare to get ur ass whooped)
-BATTLE COLISIUM (teams are formed and they have to capture 5 points by PVPing other teams. This is an amazing event, as you have to coordinate your attacks and defences with ur team mates.
-SPECIAL DUNGEONS: where you go through PVE dungeons and you ding CAPTURABLE find bosses. You can capture then at a percentage of aprox 7% after defeating a special dungeon boss, further rewarding the players, and all that besides the complete event ranks, which will also be reward.

The players spent HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY IN THIS GAME. To roll a scarlet pack, where you hace a slightly chance of getting a decent familiar, youll pay 3 dollars. To roll 10 scarlet packs, 30 dollars. And believe me, i never spent a dime in games until this one. Its totally worth it in order to build a team to compete in the events.

Thats how they kepet hundreds of thousands of players through and apparently simply pvp game. You really should do a study case on blood brothers. Many aspects of it can be implemented here in this game, and make it extremely rewards for ppl. Thats whats missing for me. rewards.

I could go on on my list of things that would improve this game in terms of overall game mechanics, but then I would have to charge for my services. lol kidding, im helping cuz i want to see this game a success. I know it has the potential. Just some work to be done.

Thx for listening to my humbe opinions.
Hope the devs hear this name BLOOD BROTHERS and play if for 1 month, participating in the events and understand why even sucky players keep playing and buying in-game stuff like mad rich kids.

A case stufy perfctly made for the future of Banner Saga.
I still play Blood Brothers everytime i can, its impossible to let it go. My party there owns mad.

raven2134
03-18-2013, 08:30 PM
Hmmm, events are a good idea I think.

But rewards are limited right now because Factions doesn't focus on content but instead gameplay and combat.

Also, there's clearly a sense that blood brothers is built to milk players and money will buy you a better team than you could earn through playing? Just some initial impressions.

I think there a things to be observed from the example, but I definitely don't want Factions to end up becoming blood brothers.

Blood brothers is much more like a collectible TCG than a tactical turn based RPG.

leiloca
03-18-2013, 09:29 PM
Hmmm, events are a good idea I think.

But rewards are limited right now because Factions doesn't focus on content but instead gameplay and combat.

Also, there's clearly a sense that blood brothers is built to milk players and money will buy you a better team than you could earn through playing? Just some initial impressions.

I think there a things to be observed from the example, but I definitely don't want Factions to end up becoming blood brothers.

Blood brothers is much more like a collectible TCG than a tactical turn based RPG.

you are right. I just wanted the devs to play it for some time to understand how they make players keep palying forever and ever, even when they suck (they team is not good, but they still enjoy playing :)

Many lessons can be learn from sucesful examples. I consider BB a sucess cuz i have my allies and we play every event together, even though its not a mmo. They built something really unique over there. And i mean, yes Banner Saga owns BB in many ways, but in player engagement they are experts. Combine those elements and u have a powerful game, for the casual and harcore player.

bruther
03-18-2013, 09:55 PM
OP: John has already said that before long they're planning to add a "quickmatch" versus option in which no games are ranked; and, the last build has already changed things so that games played below rank 6 have no effect on rank/streaks/win-loss ratio/etc. I have a strong suspicion that they may reset the records after that quickmatch feature is added; would that constitute the casual-gamer-friendliness you're looking for?

piotras
03-19-2013, 07:02 AM
Very interesting thread - I'm getting more and more concerned that what new people recognise as the main incentive for playing TBS are the rankings or at least their experience is polarised because of rankings.

My impression from what leiloca wrote is that he/she wants to be part of the competitive community. But leiloca is put off by the fact that there are permanent stats (wins, total games, w:l, etc.) in which new players don't feel they can even try to compete because these are simply rewarding grind where other had weeks/months of head-start (and which will get even more unreachable as months/years go by). I think leiloca is asking for less 'elitist' approach, where new players could compete with others.

As raven said, permanent stats give the feeling of 'haunting' you down the line, which puts off new players who see their -5 win streaks and 0.2 w:l ratio. I'm more and more in favour of a monthly/seasonal reset.

Leartes
03-19-2013, 07:26 AM
I'm not really sure resetting would do any good. If we reset Tirean he will go own a ninety-nine win streak vs new players which is boring for him and boring for the new players. Also any rewards most rewards for tournament participation are stupid. You can play competitively with a complete rank 1 team which is super easy to aquire. If you play the 25 tournament games you'll get about 200 renown out of that already, what more do you whish for?
At the moment upgrading your units with money only makes you play more strong players and lose more games.

Finally, why do stats matter? Elo is important so that matches are fair. The rest is just for the lolz. The main thing currently is playing, enjoying good strategy and testing team compositions on rank 1.

piotras
03-19-2013, 09:00 AM
It's a question of incentives. While many people enjoy the 'lolz', others don't and I need to agree that the main incentive given by the game currently are rankings, compared to things like creating new teams and unit progression.

erom
03-19-2013, 09:04 AM
I'm STRONGLY against resetting Elo. I actually am not that strongly against resetting the other stats, though I am quite surprised people are so childish they can't handle this (have they never played any other competitive game or sport before?)

If we need to baby people by hiding their losses, well, I think that's tragic but it's a small price to pay for a bigger playerbase.

But DO NOT reset Elo, that would break the entire system.

Maybe Win/Loss ratio should only be calculated for the last 20 games or month of time, whichever is longer. And win streak can just sit at 0 during loss streaks.

franknarf
03-19-2013, 09:04 AM
@Piotras: But is it really grindy? Good new players seem to show up on the elo and win streak charts all the time, so I don't really feel that those are a grind. Some people apparently like the grindy parts (getting on #wins and #games), but those aren't to be taken seriously; and Win:Loss is sort of a joke.*

@Leartes: Yeah, that does seem like a problem with a full reset. Stoic could do a partial reset: everything but elo, or with elo not mapped all the way back to 1000 (say, 1000 if < 1000; 1200 if in top 10%; 1100 for everyone else). As you say, there's not much reason to reset elo, as it serves a useful function and can/will be improved as you get genuinely better.

Stats matter to folks like the OP not for any good reason, but just because they are there to see. I suspect that many folks, when not in a match, go straight to the HoV to see their updated stats (as I do). Once the Trophy Tower opens up, they'll be able to peruse (and obsess over :)) their achievements, too.

I play it for the mostly same reasons you do,** but it still takes a while to get to rank 1 and to understand what's going on. If there is some change that can be made so that new players like the OP are more inclined to stick around until they get there, that's all to the good. And it sounds like you wouldn't mind a change to stats, anyway...?

* #1 seems to have created an account just to get that streak, then stopped playing on losing, as his/her best win streak = W:L = 96

** testing teams; enjoying playing; but also elo, especially in tourneys

Leartes
03-19-2013, 09:28 AM
Stats matter to folks like the OP not for any good reason, but just because they are there to see.
[...]
* #1 seems to have created an account just to get that streak, then stopped playing on losing, as his/her best win streak = W:L = 96


Imo this is a reason to completely remove win-streak ratings. Maybe such information should be made private? (current/longest win/lose-streak and winrate) They are fun to look at from time to time but the ranking is void of meaning.
Total games played and total wins is a tribute to the most hardcore grinders, which is ok imo. Elo is a tribut to the best players which is also fine.

If the OP really wants it, I can see an individual reset-stats button that resets everything (maybe except elo?) only for yourself. Not sure what the impact on elo would be, but shouldn't be too bad if people don't use it too much (apart from the sand-bagging if high-skilled players reset to farm new players).

I'd be seriously pissed if my total game number or total win number ever gets whiped. It is a tribute to how much and long I play this game and it is there for eternity, hehe.

leiloca
03-19-2013, 09:53 AM
Clearly people are taking me for a dumb person, insulting and patronizing me for giving a casual gamer's point of view. Sure, you can make this game the way you want, hardcore only, and have trouble finding new matches 1 year from now or keep fighting the same person over and over cuz the matchmaking will search 100 players only. Or, your can take the opposite approach, where you are not only engaging hardcore players, but also casual players. It's not the hardcore players will lose in this situation. It's a win-win situation.

You can have a permanent rank. That's ok. You can also intruduce a weekly rank, which is reset every monday. This way, casual players will have a reason to keep playing to try to get into the ranks. This way, harcore players can show they are really hardcore by making the ranks many weeks in a row. You see you won't lose? Why am I stupid for suggesting something like this? The current ranking system does not engage players. Maybe the 1% that are there already, but not the remaining 99%. And if you want this game to suceed, don't be naive and selfish. The more engaged players, the more they will play, the more purchases it will trigger, the more money Stoic will have to keep them happly updating the game.

Introducing weekly ranks, in order to engage players (harcore and newbies) has no negative trade-off attached to it.

So please, stop telling me im dumb and stupid for trying to help the game developers. Sure you are a backer as well, and you must be playing this game 20 hours per day, but you gotta think beyond yourself and what you want, you have to think what is good for the developers, which will be good for you as well as time goes by.

For the two ppl that patronized me, babysit me, you can go fuck yourselves :)

KRD
03-19-2013, 09:58 AM
But... there already are weekly rankings in there. They're just called tournaments.

leiloca
03-19-2013, 10:00 AM
Stats matter to folks like the OP not for any good reason, but just because they are there to see. I suspect that many folks, when not in a match, go straight to the HoV to see their updated stats (as I do). Once the Trophy Tower opens up, they'll be able to peruse (and obsess over :)) their achievements, too.


If the OP really wants it, I can see an individual reset-stats button that resets everything (maybe except elo?) only for yourself. Not sure what the impact on elo would be, but shouldn't be too bad if people don't use it too much (apart from the sand-bagging if high-skilled players reset to farm new players).

I'd be seriously pissed if my total game number or total win number ever gets whiped. It is a tribute to how much and long I play this game and it is there for eternity, hehe.

There you go. Why insulting me. Obviously you can't see beyond yourselves. You got high ranks, so you are here to take down any chances of make this game sucesfull by engaging a larger part of the comunity but yourselves. I'm not stupid. I don't need a buttom only for me.

It's clear for me reading you words your are sure you are better then I am. Well miss, you are wrong there.

You're clearly going to attack anywone that proposes something that may touch your king stats, even if it doesnt , cuz your blind to see there could be game mechanics that would make noobs play the game as well. You'll rot here alone in 1 years if noone touches you. Are you that high?

Leartes
03-19-2013, 10:05 AM
I have not insulted you, neither in the quoted passage nor in the rest of my post. My elo-ranking is about 1100 and I have not participated in a single tournament. Also my total number of ranked games is somewhere between 50 and 60. I'm not hardcore at all :-)

Anyway, as KRD said. There are weekly stats in the tournament. Every week all participants reset to 1000 elo and reset current streaks.

leiloca
03-19-2013, 10:13 AM
I'm just going to end with this: this game is lacking engagement. Engagement means I wanna go back and play more and more, cuz i can accomplish something and be rewarded for that. Me, the noob, and also the hardcore players. I'm playing Banner saga right now to kill some time PVPing. I get some renow which i cannot use and even if I do it only gets me 1 stats, which does not make that much difference in a game whatsoever, since I'll be playing agains same rank ppl. So as it is, it is just a nice pvp time killer with no rewards attached. No engagement.

Have an open mind to learn? Play Blood Brothers. Even if it is childish or whatever your critics may be, just play it to realise the potential of this game if it had the same player engagement BB achieved by introducing a few elements to their games, such as allies, different kinds of events, happening all the time, rewards for the masses, top 1 player gets legendary stuff, #30,000 player gets a silver coin and is still happy. Just go for it. Give it a try. You'll see what I'm talking about.

And the only reason I am "wasting" my time here is because I want this game to suceed. Like I said, it was a WOW for me at a first glance. I love RPG. I love turn based. I love strategy. But I also love rewarding games. And this is not a rewarding game for someone who only has 1-2 hours per day to play.

BB 10 million downloads (only in Play store). You start an event and after a few battles you're 523,0322 in rank. Which means approx. 1 million ppl must be playing the events at the same time. How can you ignore those engagement mechanics they made? The numbers speak for themselves. They started out really shy, like us here at Banner Saga, and the masses came when they started adding events, allies, rewards, and stuff that kept ppl playing. That's the road to sucess right there. It's given. That's my whole point.
I'm gone, you won't be hearing from me anymore.
Later and thx.

franknarf
03-19-2013, 10:16 AM
By the way, I think having the game make money is secondary to providing a good ad/demo/thing-to-do-while-waiting for a forthcoming single-player game. They don't want to tarnish that element by making a pay-to-win or addictive game. Also, as you know, they may not have time to polish the game (at least in the direction you propose) right now and are only adding things that are useful for the single-player experience.

I think they can catch up on the size of the player base later, after selling hundreds of thousands of copies of the Saga. :cool: For now, I think it's enough just to make sure there are no major turn-offs for new players (like, perhaps, the thing you brought up).

^ This is not patronizing <-- This is patronizing :) I don't think my earlier comments were offensive, but anyway there's no need to curse.

EDIT: Just read your new comment. I look at the stats all the time, too, as I said in my comment. That was not an insult towards you or anyone else. What you said about not seeing beyond myself, or whatever, was clearly meant as an insult, but...um, I'm totally okay with that. Cheers. :)

raven2134
03-19-2013, 10:25 AM
Moderator rules the posts were well meant and non-offensive.

piotras
03-19-2013, 10:33 AM
I guess we need to make a distinction between elo and stats. Elo has a use to make match-making better and is much more dynamic due to how you are rewarded / stripped off elo as time goes by. Permanent stats however is the primary reason for why things got toxic (noob abuse, cookie cutter builds etc.) and why threads like this one appear. We shouldn't underestimate the message here, since there's definitely more new people like leiloca who never bother to come to the forums, but just drops the game altogether.

I like how Magic The Gathering Planechase handles their stats: it's all private, but it tells you were you sit in the general online ranking.

EDIT: typo

erom
03-19-2013, 10:53 AM
Yeah, that's actually what I was saying - as much as I disagree with leiloca's point, I think it is worth thinking about how to cater to that type of player so that we grow the playerbase.

If anything, I wouldn't want to reset Elo because that will cause _more_ noob abuse, rather than less.

By the by, I don't think Blood Brothers is actually a very good game to be drawing inspiration from. It feeds you lots of little reward in drips and drops, the typical MMO/freemium model, but it has a very big grind as a result. Factions doesn't have as many rewards to earn, sure, but that means it has a blessedly short grind.

(Factions has a _broad_ grind, BB has a _deep_ grind, if that makes any sense. Except that Factions grind isn't very broad yet either - it's just small right now. But as more unit types get released you will reach the point where there are a great many things to earn renown for, but not a very deep power hump to climb.)

gripho
03-20-2013, 07:07 PM
I don't think Elo should ever be reset, as it would seriously hamper matchmaking. A button to reset your own Elo would be a lesser evil, but would still lead to Elo inflation (it would be used by people under 1000 Elo, which would bring them back to 1000 Elo, and they would then give other players more Elo when they lose...).

LieChenZhou
03-21-2013, 02:49 AM
As a True casual gamer (meaning I don't have any more time than 2-3 matches a day) I find this game is the epitome of fair PvP gaming.

PvP is fair and balanced means I don't have to worry about suddenly facing 2 20AR/25STR Warhawks since the other guy spent 200 Euro to buy +10/+7 Elite Odin Amulets nor my rank 1 team won't meet a rank 6 team cause the other guy grind for 18 hours straight.
This game has alot of potential cause it is fair, not heavy on the money spenders or the grinders.
As you play more, YOU yourself level up, you understand the tactics and unit movements better as you play more.
The only game I know that is like this is Counter-Strike and Chess. BOTH are Legendary games.

Banner Saga Factions already have the base of a good PvP game that is the player itself determine whether they are going to win or lose, when I lose my mind would be "Did I move the BM too soon? did I shot the wrong target? etc." not maybe I should have purchased that unit...or worst maybe I need to purchase to win

Anyway, Leiloca's idea if the dev would choose to take it. (Adding Elite/Premium Units/ stat altering items)
could take BS:F in the direction of almost every game today, pay to win, they would rake money from BS:F but the potential to make a legendary game would be lost

Trying to make players feel attached is good idea though, but I don't think better stats units and or stats altering items is a good idea

Think of your choice :

Blood Brothers : 10 million downloads, but how many are active players?
Counter-Strike : over 10 years and some still play 1.6. Heck some still play 1.1 for bunny hopping

Two
03-21-2013, 10:14 AM
Bump. Constructive conversations and interesting suggestions!

djangoc
03-21-2013, 10:44 AM
I explained myself badly. By having a chance to win I mean having a chance to climb the ranks. People with 20 hours per day will climb Wins rank. Hardcore / theorycrafting players will climb the "Win/Losses" rank as well as Kill Streak ranks. There is no place for a casual gamer to be engaged this way. I'm just trying to express my point of view as a casual gamer. There is no point for me to go back to the game. What's the point? PVP griding? That's something new for me. I really like this game, i bought the eternal boost as well as some color stuff in order to support the developers. But there should be some kind of rank reset. Even if it's like not for me personally, but for everyone once a month. When the reset comes, top ranking players are rewarded somehow. So the rank is always temporary. Maybe this could be a third rank besides all-time and tournament. I don't know.

Blood Brothers, for instance, a similar game to this (on Andoird) has events, like the Tournaments here, but with much more rewards, even for ppl at 30,000# position. This game has so much potential. DEVS, IF YOU ARE READING THIS, PLEASE check how blood brothers do in order to keep ppl playing. Weekly events, rank reset, more rewards. Banner Saga's combat mechanics + Blood Brothers's player engagement = ultimate fun time.

My 2 cents.
Thx,
They should definitely add leagues but ultimately every single game on the market right now works the same. Higher Elo players play against high Elo players, lower Elo players play against low Elo players. The better/luckier you get at the game, the more your Elo rises. If you lose 100 matches in a row, and then start winning your Elo will rise.