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franknarf
03-20-2013, 08:04 AM
I just played someone who must have a much lower Elo and it was no fun. He said things like "I don't know what happened...I consistently lose now...I am quitting this I think." My guess is that he's being matched up with very experienced opponents, just because we're the folks who are online at the time.

According to the changelog, quickmatch is only based on team power (which, I suppose, makes it quicker), but I think Elo and/or #games should also factor in.

Oh, and for experienced players, it would also be preferable to match with players of similar skill, since we want to use quickmatch to test out builds.

Shiri
03-20-2013, 08:37 AM
I assume this is already the case, but in the event that it's not, you probably want a "hidden Elo" that's separate from visible ranked elo and only used for matchmaking, so players are generally matched against opponents of around their ability. Otherwise making it work based on Elo wouldn't do anything because, well, they're playing unranked so their Elo isn't going to change to begin with, preventing the matchmaker from operating properly. Even though it's stress free in the sense that the rankings in QM aren't visible, 50/50 matchups are still desirable.

Leartes
03-20-2013, 08:43 AM
Pretty obvious this would come after all the whining about even matches. If you have unranked matches you can't really base them on elo for simple reasons. It is unfair to those that play ranked succesfully vs those that only play unranked and tournament.

If you want a fair match, go play ranked. If you lose a lot in quickmatch, go play ranked. It is more fair obviously.

On the other hand it'd be nice of all the vets if you don't faceroll new players in quickmatch. Testing builds should be possible in ranked as well. Quickmatch is just a nice name for "I don't care for super unbalanced match-ups, I want to play NOW" - and that is what it does well.

EDIT: Hidden elo can work, though the wait time for better match should be super short imo. Apart from that, if you have rank 6 ideally everyone sticks to ranked and leaves new players with rank 1-5 alone in quickmatch (underdog + much lower skill ...)

Ninjineer
03-20-2013, 08:52 AM
If you want a fair match, go play ranked. If you lose a lot in quickmatch, go play ranked. It is more fair obviously.

While this is true and obvious to those players who read the forums and generally keep up with the development of Factions, I don't think it's intuitive to new players. If I were new, my first reaction would be to stay away from Ranked until I was more confident in my abilities, which is exactly the opposite of what I should be doing. Perhaps some additional in-game explanation would help new players understand this?

piotras
03-20-2013, 09:15 AM
I guess the elo is not taken into account so the match maker can be quicker.

Also, if someone plays unranked mostly, his/her skill is getting better but the elo stays the same, so that person will start to be soon matched against weaker opponents. If we can't expect unranked to match fairly anyway, why should we bother with elo? At least you have a random chance of playing against better and weaker opponents. When you're new, the pool of better opponents will be greater, but one needs to decide if they rather play for fun (unranked) or for 'competitive-fun', ie stats (ranked).

I would like the fact that I can play against a stronger opponent (or be out-stated) without the whole w:l stats and other bullshi(r)t, you definitely learn more from that.

StandSure
03-20-2013, 09:19 AM
While this is true and obvious to those players who read the forums and generally keep up with the development of Factions, I don't think it's intuitive to new players. If I were new, my first reaction would be to stay away from Ranked until I was more confident in my abilities, which is exactly the opposite of what I should be doing. Perhaps some additional in-game explanation would help new players understand this?

I think this is a good idea. The connotation of "Ranked" is that it is for serious players only, whereas to me this seems like the go-to style of play, since it puts you with someone who should give you an interesting game, and offers the most rewards (Renown AND status). Maybe this option should be renamed to "Fair Match" or "Even Match" or "Matched Game" to mitigate the feeling like you are entering a higher level of play. To me, the ranking aspect is secondary to drawing a worthy opponent.

franknarf
03-20-2013, 09:28 AM
I like the idea of a hidden Elo that still works relatively quickly. I don't think it's necessary to have quickmatch games be lopsided or necessarily very quick to find.


...it'd be nice of all the vets if you don't faceroll new players in quickmatch. Testing builds should be possible in ranked as well. Quickmatch is just a nice name for "I don't care [about] super unbalanced match-ups, I want to play NOW" - and that is what it does well.

I don't think we can count on vets to stay out of quickmatch. For me, as a coward I would like to use it to test out builds. And it will probably be the destination for veterans who want to safely farm Renown. BTW, "care for" (https://www.google.com/search?q=define+%22care+for%22) means "like".

@Ninjineer: Hiya (we played a couple of days ago) and welcome to the forums. I think that's a good point: new players won't know to "go play ranked" when they lose a lot in quickmatch; they'll just quit (like the guy I played said he would). We need somewhere safe for new players, where they both (i) won't get thwomped and (ii) won't have to play "competitively".

raven2134
03-20-2013, 09:35 AM
Hmm...Can't we all just be happy for like 1 week that we now have 2 match types? I don't think Stoic even gets a honeymoon period of 5 days for any of the changes they introduce :p.

Perhaps the labels need tweaking, system wise though, doesn't it work well enough?

We asked for these things and got them :), let's express a bit of appreciation/gratitude first at least.

StandSure
03-20-2013, 09:43 AM
We need somewhere safe for new players, where they both (i) won't get thwomped and (ii) won't have to play "competitively".
I still think that this place is "Ranked" play, since you get matched with someone of similar skill. Now that the bottom ranks just say "1000+" (like I am worse than the 1,000th player, and not specifically rank #23,952 :) ), there isn't much shame/downside in playing competitively. Heck, you don't even have to go look at the Hall of Valor if you don't care where you are ranked; it's easy to avoid, and other players can't see your rank or Elo or whatever unless you are top 20.

If you emphasize that Ranked Play is a fair and even match, with a footnote about matchmaking taking longer, rather than focusing on the rankings, you have the best set-up. I think it's in the best interest of everyone to BE ranked, even if they don't pay attention, so that a fair match is possible. So the interface should steer you to Ranked Play, and present Quickmatch as a means to get, well, a quick match, BUT at the cost of not affecting your ranking.

Ranking should be something that you opt OUT of rather than opt INTO.

Shiri
03-20-2013, 09:50 AM
Hmm...Can't we all just be happy for like 1 week that we now have 2 match types? I don't think Stoic even gets a honeymoon period of 5 days for any of the changes they introduce :p.

Perhaps the labels need tweaking, system wise though, doesn't it work well enough?

We asked for these things and got them :), let's express a bit of appreciation/gratitude first at least.

Well, if it wasn't clear, I'm really glad we have an unranked queue now, I plan on using it a lot since it's less stressful than the ranked queue! But that doesn't necessarily mean I can assume there won't be any teething pains.

For example, I'm noticing people complain in global chat that they're not finding matches anymore. I assume they're going into ranked with power 7 teams or something and just finding no one to be matched against. That's pretty much gonna happen, but maybe making it more obvious that's what's happening so they can go in with rank 6 would be good? Or rank 12. Whatever.

StandSure
03-20-2013, 09:50 AM
Hmm...Can't we all just be happy for like 1 week that we now have 2 match types? I don't think Stoic even gets a honeymoon period of 5 days for any of the changes they introduce :p.


Ha ha, the price of being responsive to your customers. I personally can't help myself from getting involved in a discussion when I think I might have a solution, and I think the Beta might have spoiled us a bit :). But I'm big enough to step back if Stoic wants to say "that's it!"

To be honest, I thought that the Factions release was going to be pretty much set in stone, with maybe some new units sprinkled in later. I've been really surprised at how much feedback/response there has continued to be...I would have shut that door when I could! Better men than I...

raven2134
03-20-2013, 09:57 AM
Ohh don't speak to soon, I do think they've got their hands on the knob, and pulling with all their steadily growing beard-ly might, but our community is holding on to the door and its a tug of war :D hahaha

franknarf
03-20-2013, 10:24 AM
@StandSure: Yeah, I think maybe a relabeling to encourage Ranked matches might be enough, now that the competitive aspect has been dampened with the "1000+" thing. Still, the mm for unranked might benefit from some tweaking.

@raven: Like Shiri, I'm really glad we have unranked matches now. Thanks, Stoic! :D

Vexbane
03-20-2013, 09:27 PM
I am grateful that stoic did what they did and are working hard on the game. So a big thumbs up!

However, there are some valid points here that I feel could be easily solved. right now we have ranked and quickmatch.

Rank is the go to place to compete and earn elo and some renown.

quickmatch is where you go to test builds and farm renown. As there are no consequences to losing as far as your rank goes.

To most new players rank = hardest competition and best players. Quickmatch would be like a training grounds area, but it isn't. Players are going to farm renown there. That is going to be the go to farming zone. So how to solve these issues?

Rank- Nothing wrong with it. It should stay as is. Needs some kind of way to see how many of what power decks are in the lobby though to improve que times.

Quickmatch- Needs to be renamed unranked. Matches should still be fair as they are in ranked. W/L still count, but nothing else does. Renown gain is halved or lowered. This gives more incentive to play ranked. I like the idea of a secret elo and games played being a preferred method for matching people up. This will be the go to testing grounds and the 2nd place new players go so matches still need to be fair imo.

Training grounds- This needs to be added as a 3rd option. This will be where new players only go. Rules for TG are as follows:
- Only sub rank 6 decks
- No units higher than rank 1
- No W/L counted
- No elo gained
- Renown gained as normal
- Only fair matches (important for new players to be matched equally)
- No more than 40 games played to be eligible (to prevent farming)

Honestly all matches should be matched up fair as far as deck power goes. You can still make decent que times without mismatching people. Some system for skill still needs to be used in all modes of play for matching people. This method gives the fairest odds at an even match.

So what should we do about underdog bonus? Make it based off of elo (secret elo for unranked and normal elo for ranked). Let's face it someone that is more skilled is still going to win most of the time even with a fair power deck so rewarding underdog based on elo makes sense.

So the new progression would be:

New player. Goes through the tutorial. Is prompted to watch the other tutorials upon completion of the initial one. Then they are prompted to play in the training grounds. They get a fair number of games (40) where they can earn renown and skill to play and make a power 6 team.

After the TG phase (or before if they have a rank 6 deck) then they can choose to go right to ranked (earning the same renown and elo) or further testing in the unranked match. You will gain less renown (to promote rank play instead of renown farming), but can test without losing or gain elo or rank.

In all areas you will be matched up against a fair power team. This give the best overall experience as skill and not unit power will always be the determining factor for winning/losing. You can still earn an underdog bonus based off of the skill (elo difference) of your opponent.

I feel the above is a good progression for the game and will offer a good experience for all player types.

erom
03-21-2013, 12:33 AM
Honestly all matches should be matched up fair as far as deck power goes. You can still make decent que times without mismatching people.Citation Needed.

The rest of your post is good stuff and I agree with much of it, but I really have concerns about whether that statement is actually true. I feel like it probably isn't for all power values and times of day.

netnazgul
03-21-2013, 01:07 AM
Quickmatch is the same matchmaking that was "Versus" prior to the update, it still considers team power and elo ranking. The only difference is that it's not counted into any leaderboards.

So there are two differences between Quickmatch and Ranked:

Ranked matches count into rankings (elo is changed after match, win streaks, wins, all that stuff), Quickmatch does not
Ranked matches do not allow different team power to be matched; if we assume that for each team power value there are 10 differently ranked and players waiting in Ranked queue and the same in Quickmatch, you'll be matched a lot quicker in the latter mode cause in Ranked you can only be matched with those 10 that have the same team power


My explanation seems to be rather obscure but nevertheless :)


To summ up:
- for now you can use quickmatch to gain renown/kills and experiment with different builds not being afraid to lose ranking
- ranked matching is the same as tournament one, you are matched with equal teampowered opponent, the only difference being your skill
- ranked game would be rather long to be matched for odd teampower values, cause there are lot less players playing non-tournament team power; but you can still use odd teampower and be matched in quickmatch

netnazgul
03-21-2013, 01:14 AM
oh, as for this:

I just played someone who must have a much lower Elo and it was no fun. He said things like "I don't know what happened...I consistently lose now...I am quitting this I think." My guess is that he's being matched up with very experienced opponents, just because we're the folks who are online at the time.
Considering that you played before 19:00 UTC+0, matchmaker was broken that time so it gave you any possible opponent in no time and weird elo gain was awarded for win (you can observe that on the leaderboards - some players gained crazy amounts of elo yesterday due to this bug).
Arnie said somewhere around 18:40 UTC+0 yesterday that this was fixed.

Vexbane
03-21-2013, 12:25 PM
Citation Needed.

The rest of your post is good stuff and I agree with much of it, but I really have concerns about whether that statement is actually true. I feel like it probably isn't for all power values and times of day.

Thank you for the support Erom.

The match making will improve as time goes by. I think making it more noobie friendly is a good step in improving this. Right now there are just not a lot of people queing as the game is so new. (especially at powers higher than 6) and the match maker is still being tweaked.

The biggest thing that will improve que times is seeing how many of what deck powers are queing. Then people can tweak their deck as needed to get a fast match. Between that and fair matches only will alleviate players concerns, hence making more players que increasing que times. PvP can be intimidating to new players. I know I was weary of it as well. Renaming and tweaking the choices will help this.

So that way there is a little give and take from both sides. Stoic can make things faster by displaying deck powers and fair matches. The players can help out by adapting to the que. As more players play the game higher power decks will que faster.

franknarf
03-21-2013, 12:49 PM
@netnazgul: I was playing a quickmatch, not ranked (hence the thread's title :)). I didn't catch any of that overflowing Elo during the glitchy period.


Quickmatch is the same matchmaking that was "Versus" prior to the update, it still considers team power and elo ranking.

You sound quite confident, but if that's true, the changelog should be changed:


Quickmatch: Find the best possible match with a Power difference of up to 4, and disregarding Elo.

@vexbane: I agree with your diagnosis, but as far as the details of the prescription...dunno. I feel like the training grounds you describe should be merge-able with quickmatch, and that the only new gameplay modes needed will come out with the AI and 2v2.

netnazgul
03-21-2013, 02:56 PM
You sound quite confident, but if that's true, the changelog should be changed:


Hmm, I've skipped that line in patch notes then... :) Still it's rather fair, quickmatch is what it is - very quick matchmaking.

Ninjineer
03-21-2013, 08:51 PM
I think implementing an entirely new match type over the separation we've just received is premature. In the long term it may make sense to change how the system decide when players cross over from training to full participation in the Elo system, but I'll leave that up the folk who can see the player data.

A little extra on the tooltip to give a sense to new players that "Quick Match = Here There Be Dragons" will go a long way. Once steered into Ranked matches for their first experiences and a taste of victory, the new player/customer/fan's relationship with Factions will be much more stable.


@Ninjineer: Hiya (we played a couple of days ago) and welcome to the forums.
Hi franknarf, yes I remember. This community is very friendly and I wish I'd become a part of it sooner; Factions and its players remind me of the old days of Myth TFL/SB in all the right ways. May Stoic's banner grow ever longer!

dmastri
03-21-2013, 11:46 PM
New player here..... just quit and uninstalled after a night of frustrating automatches. looks like i should have been playing ranked. eh. bummer

Leartes
03-22-2013, 05:18 AM
New player here..... just quit and uninstalled after a night of frustrating automatches. looks like i should have been playing ranked. eh. bummer

Fortunately it is quick to reinstall ;)

Honestly, I'm not sure why people have such strange expectations about the game. AFAIK Factions is not ment to be finished in a very long time. At the moment, it is an opportunity to get to know the system and a vent for people that love the game/team. In the finished state, it needs more and better tutorial systems - which is given naturally for people that play saga first. Maybe for now, we only need better explanations for starting players. Like pop-ups if you first visit a screen telling you in more a few sentences what to expect from different types of matchmaking (unranked, ranked, tournament, friends).
I don't think we should push the devs too much towards polishing factions now. Mostly because there are still massive changes incoming and it takes away a lot of development time for saga (which ultimately brings new factions features anyway).

Also, someone wanted to decrease renown/kills in unranked. I disagree with that idea. Imo it is the wrong way of pushing players to ranked. Players should play ranked since it gives good matches, not because unranked is worthless.

Finally, there was some debate on power restricting mechanics for ranked. Maybe, for the love of saga, we should simply try to enforce a soft "everyone only queues at powerlevel a, b, c" in the community? The playerbase is not too huge to do this yet imo.

dmastri
03-22-2013, 08:53 AM
vThey need to do a better job of explaining that. i spent 2 hours trying to figure out why I couldnt advance my guy to rank2....because it dont exiar. i thought this was a beta but really seems alpha. thats okay but they need to manage player expectations and be crystal clear about what this is and isn't...particularly when they are running the ftp store. to be honest im not comfortable with them launching the store and taking money this early. they did have a successfull kickstarter, afterall.

Leartes
03-22-2013, 10:52 AM
thats okay but they need to manage player expectations and be crystal clear about what this is and isn't...particularly when they are running the ftp store. to be honest im not comfortable with them launching the store and taking money this early. they did have a successfull kickstarter, afterall.

I can understand you well. BUT e.g. I was not part of kickstarter. I'm happy I can support them now via ingame store. It is not like you need to buy anything. You can play top tier without buying in - compared to all other games I know of. So store is ok with me (as it is not important) and they should explain stuff better.

raven2134
03-22-2013, 11:23 AM
It confuses me how people have a range of understandings on the state of the game all the way from prototype, to alpha, to beta, to final, to better than final, etc. :p

I suppose that has to do with varied experiences with games as well. TBSF isn't in an alpha or beta stage, but it is still developing and will receive much polishing as time goes by.

Personally, I find this dynamic atmosphere and potential more attractive and engaging than a game that has all it's bells and whistles, because while it is a surprise (and not always pleasant), it is a fair amount better to know something exciting could be waiting right around the corner :).

With Chapter one under development, and 2 more chapters for the single player following a time after, you can be sure Factions will continue to evolve.

RobertTheScott
03-23-2013, 12:42 PM
We asked for these things and got them :), let's express a bit of appreciation/gratitude first at least.

I am very thankful and grateful; quickmatches are much less stressful when I'm too tired to think straight, or experimenting.

That said, I still do think the name could be changed. Don't see any drawbacks, in fact!

LordLupin
03-23-2013, 01:44 PM
It confuses me how people have a range of understandings on the state of the game all the way from prototype, to alpha, to beta, to final, to better than final, etc. :p

I suppose that has to do with varied experiences with games as well. TBSF isn't in an alpha or beta stage, but it is still developing and will receive much polishing as time goes by.

In truth it confuses me that this is not a problem. I understand that it is considered to have gone past beta testing, but for any new players this will feel like an unfinished product. There are elements (less now than on release) that the game talks of as part of the mechanics core to its play, yet it isnt implemented yet. The confusion is made even more strange by tutorials talking of things like ranking up beyond 1, but that wasnt even there on launch.....or even explained that it wasnt there. People are not known for scouring the interwebs or forums to find answers or even just to be up to date on a game they just started playing. They need information and some for of intuitive way of knowing what is happening.

I love the game, and play it daily to much enjoyment, but for me i dont see this game being out of "beta" until it at least has all the core elements of their units put in. Adding units, maps, game plays and shop options are things that I would easily consider worthy add-ons as the gaem progresses in development, but i was highly put off by the games lack of explanation to its highly "slimmed" out launch.

franknarf
03-23-2013, 03:36 PM
@Lupin: Besides ranking up beyond 1, what else is missing? As far as I'm concerned, the core mechanics are what you can do in battle (damage, movement and the user interface), and those are rock solid. Rank-ups, in contrast, are part of the meta-game, and I don't understand why you draw a distinction between them ("beta" stuff) and adding new units and maps (part of "progressing in development").

I agree that they could do a better job of communicating stuff (I think they could really use an in-game news board...and heard that one is on the way), but what other reasons do you have for insisting on calling it a beta? Maybe you're thinking of banner customization, the Trophy Tower and AI? Again, I'd hardly call the first two core mechanics, and AI is not necessary for a multiplayer game to be complete.

erom
03-23-2013, 04:31 PM
So back on the topic of quickmatch... I don't think I have seen it mentioned in this thread that you can't use ranked match below power 6, so you HAVE to use quickmatch - which might throw a wrench in the idea that "Quick Match = Here There Be Dragons" as Ninjineer put it.