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lysambrias
04-16-2013, 03:18 PM
With tournaments now fought between power 12 teams, unit promotion will play a large role when creating tournament builds - a good thing too! I hope this will encourage a greater variety of teams as certain units begin to shine at higher ranks.

I've been keeping all my units at rank 1 and playing power 6 ranked matches. As I earn enough renown to upgrade, I've been thinking about how best to make the jump to power 12. The simplest way would be to upgrade all my units from rank 1 to rank 2, but I'm certain it's not the best choice.

Here are my thoughts on good ranks for the units I use most (note that this is only theoretical at this point):

Rank 1
- Thrasher (can have max strength/armor at rank 1)
- Warhawk (max strength already, using higher rank Tempests seems unlikely)
- Strongarm (stat points might be nice, but a higher rank Battering Ram doesn't seem worth it)

Rank 2
- Backbiter (for running 3 spaces through a Varl and a small unit)

Rank 3
- Raidmaster (more stat points for these guys is great, ability could help even late-game)
- Siege Archer (more break for SnB and coals everywhere for serious map control)
- Warleader (more range for Forge Ahead helps him really shine, stat points are welcome too)

I'm thinking about running the following at power 12 - Unit (Rank) ARM/STR/WIL/EXT/BRK

RM (3) 12/10/4/2/3
TH (1) 11/12/3/1/2
SA (3) 9/7/7/3/2
BB (2) 12/10/4/2/2
SRM (2) 14/14/2/1/2
WH (1) 10/16/2/2/1

It will take forever to get my raidmaster that many kills though...

What units have you found to really shine at higher ranks? Which carry their weight even at rank 1?

Kletian999
04-16-2013, 03:38 PM
I discuss level viability in my "know your units" threads, my published opinions have been:
Raidmasters, 1st or 2nd, third level isn't practical.
Shieldmasters, 3rd is the most effective
Bowmasters, same as Raidmasters.

loveboof
04-16-2013, 04:19 PM
The Thrasher ability is one of the more straight forward choices for upgrading isn't it? An extra hit?

I think the Warleader would work perfectly at rank 2 (maybe the third is unnecessary?), but I agree on the Warhawk!

And for me, the Skystriker at rank 3 would be very useful...

Kletian999
04-16-2013, 06:05 PM
Thrasher gets less efficient with power. Level 1 is 3-5 random damage for 1 will, Level 2 is 4-6 random damage for 2 will.

Skystriker certainly becomes more dangerous with higher power, but you'd only get value from it if you are capable of actually forcing/tricking them into it. If an enemy retreats from level 3, it's a waste.

Warhawk can occasionally land a level 2 Tempest, and even when they don't, the extra stat help with armor or exertion.

Warmaster is substantially more dangerous at higher levels, if you opponent doesn't avoid the splash damage. Warleader I want to use more before evaluating.

Siege archers are pretty good a level 2 but I think with the nerf rank 3 might be a waste.

Backbiters rank 2 is awesome, Rank 3 is also cool but a bit expensive.

Provokers are more useful at higher levels, Strongarms lower their "break" weakness with level.

roder
04-16-2013, 06:05 PM
I'll outline the units I use the most

Rank 1
Thrasher
Raidmaster (no reason to upgrade more, ability makes ppl ignore, only warrior can dmg)
Bowmaster (rank 2 not worth it imo)
Skystriker (rank 2 def not worth it)

Rank 2/3
Shieldmaster
Warleader
Backbiter

In terms of efficiency and highest "practical" armor/dmg potential, I think Shieldmaster and Warleader are the best candidates. Shieldmaster because his passive can do armor damage on multiple opponents turns. And Warleader because of the aoe damage.
I say practical, because Strongarm can do more dmg if everyone is lined up for him or on firemap, or you surround warhawk with 4 units lol but that doesnt happen everygame.

As for the team I'm going to make
Raidmaster (1)
Shieldmaster (3)
Backbiter (3)
Bowmaster (1)
Bowmaster (1)
Warleader (3)

EDIT: I changed my mind about RM, he coul benefit from the stat at rank 2, but thats as far as it goes. Might change my line up to RM(2) and BB(2)

Butters
04-16-2013, 07:43 PM
My personal take on the matter :

Archers
- BM is best at rank 2, can still work pretty well at rank 1, rank 3 is a waste (or is it ? never actually tested)
- SA used to be very good at rank 3, not so much anymore. Still use her at rank 1, have to retest other ranks.
- SS is good at either r1 (as a deterrent) or at r3 when combo'ed with a PK. r2 is middle-of-the-road.

Raiders
- RM is good at r1 (defense, break) and very good at r2 (can also be a hitter). the stat point at r3 would be nice to have be I don't think it's worth downgrading someone else.
- TH works well at r1, but can benefit from the extra point at r2 (I'd put it in exertion). r2 ability is not too shabby. r3 seems a waste.
- BB is mediocre at r1, although it works in p6 teams. I like r2. r3 seems not worth it.

Warriors
- WL does work at r1, but works best at r2. r3 is largely unnecessary.
- WM works well at r2, although r1 is efficient enough. r3 might work just for the stat point (see WH)
- WH doesn't benefit from higher rank tempest unless your opponent has terrible placement (or luck, possibly). r1 works well, but I think he still benefits largely of the extra stat points (in armor). I'm running a r3 recently and it does quite well.

Shieldbangers
- SRM is good at r1, r2 is quite nice too ; the stat point is good (wp) and the r2 ability works well if you happen to have a RoA to push enemies into ^^ Even if you don't, actually. r3 might be good (huge stats), not tested.
- SM scales well. r1 is a bit weak, r2 is good, r3 is potentially worth it.
- PK r1 does not synergize with SS. I use r2 at least, and I think r3 is worth it.

Bertez
04-16-2013, 10:09 PM
I vote me move this thread to the tactics section as that seemsmore appropriate

Borissimo
04-16-2013, 10:31 PM
Good thread, and good responses! I'll weigh in, but in a slightly different fashion: rather than sorting by unit type, I'm going to sort by how easy it is to determine the unit's "proper" rank.

Usual caveat before we get started: all of these are just my opinion, and all of them can I'm sure be refuted via some imagination and clever construction of corner cases. ;) In GENERAL, though...

Easy calls:

Warleader: Needs to be rank 2. The ability at rank 1 is too restrictive; expanding the range to 4 squares adds an explosion of possibilities. The subsequent expansion at rank 3 is excessive for the WP cost; being within 4 squares isn't that hard.

Backbiter: Needs to be rank 2 or 3. At rank 1, you can't rush through a varl and another unit, so the ability is prohibitively restrictive.

Siege archer: Needs to be rank 1. At rank 1, you can happily max strength, armor, break, and exertion, so you don't need more stat points. And you certainly don't need to upgrade the ability, which, post-nerf, is pretty bad.

Provoker: Needs to be rank 2. At rank 2, the ability explodes in usefulness, much like the warleader's. At rank 3, however, the cost is prohibitive given the low WP of provokers.

Hard calls:

Raidmasters: You could play these at rank 1, since the ability is great even then. However, if you play them with 3 break, the extra stat points in armor and strength are QUITE welcome.

Thrashers: The higher ranks of the ability are a bit of a deception. It's better to use bloody flail at rank 1 twice, than to use it at rank 2 once. However, if you realize that your Thrasher is about to go down, having the higher rank option provides you with a mechanism to burn your WP for value before you go. And as with raidmasters, the extra stat points in armor/strength are very welcome.

Warmasters and warhawks: the upgrade to the abilities, I find, is marginal, in the warmaster's case because their WP is so low, and in the warhawk's case because it's so tough to arrange. However, the extra stat points in armor/exertion are incredibly nice.

Really hard calls:

For strongarms, shieldmasters, skyshooters, and bowmasters, I think too much depends on the rest of your team and what you're trying to do to make any definitive general judgments.

raven2134
04-16-2013, 11:27 PM
my method of experimentation was opposite of the OP. I just upgraded whatever to rank 2 and went with it :). Still was a very fun.

Per unit recommendation:

TH r1,r2
Getting more willpower and also the option to burn this willpower when maimed and before the unit is about to be taken off the board works well. r3 just seems like a stat upgrade that wont clearly serve a strategic purpose, the rank cost for team makeup is better allocated to other units.

BBs r2,r3
I think both the stats and the mobility are very useful. Since they can be used as switch-up units (switch between break or hunt roles), the extra stats comes in handy, and the wp/exertion can be burnt for breaking or hunting.

RM r1,r2,
The ability pretty much maxes out it's usefulness at r2. At rank 1 you can stat the RM armor high to achieve the same result as a r2 ability. r2 allows the RM to pump strength to be more flexible or give you 1 more unit that can do a critical str attack (as oppposed to a 9 str RM). r3 only gives you more stat and again, the rank cost for team make up is better spent on other units.

SS r1,r2
I doubt you'd ever get an enemy played by a good player caught in a r3 RoA. And the gamble of 3 wp, even when the opponent can just move back or rest seems too risky to make. r2 RoA seems good for catching raiders (since those usually advance regardless), and reducing their effectiveness. r1 is good for long drawn out positional play.

SA r1,r2,r3
Now I would say the SA is interesting at all ranks. 1 is enough for moderate enemy varl control, the ever present 1 str armor ignore, and she still breaks well. r2 gives you some control over raiders and you get more stat for more break. And while the SAs are a bit short on willpower given the usefulness of the ability/breaking, at r3 you can try stating for 9/7 1 or 2 AB 1 ex 9 or 10 WP and just burn it doing 3/1+coals. Or you can go for a more flexible 9/7 2 AB 2 ex 8 WP (or even 9/6. 2 AB 3 ex, 8 wp)

BM r1,r2
I think r2 BM works well. While 7 will be what you use most of the time 8 means almost total coverage of your formation. Getting a bit more armor to prevent SAs from running up and gimping you is also useful. r3 doesn't seem cost-damage efficient to merit using it - you would probably be better off running forward and boosting with that wp in most situations.

SM
r1,r2,r3
He's a pretty useful varl. At any level he does good break. Higher levels give him more stat which makes him last longer or have more utility, which means more effectiveness breaking. R3 might be more for stat than ability tho...cos the cost is very high and the break is outrageous 4+2 + 4 on RtF from BtP

SRM r2,r3
In my opinion, the SRM is the unit that's wasted by leaving it at r1. At r1 SRM is basically a less mobile high armor warrior. At r2, the SRM can become a decent and pretty good breaker AND get enough stat to make him an all-arounder with long game ability use. r3 just makes him more beast with killer stats on top of that.

PK r1,r2
While r3 range is enticing, feels like quite a big strategic gamble to go for r3 Malice moving an enemy out of position. You'd get maybe 1 off and run out of wp. Rank ups seem good for getting the PK to last longer and lock down a target for longer, using lower level malices.

WL r2
WL is definitely a r2 unit. r1 has limited strategic options with ability, r3 seems too much wp for the effect. Since WL has high starting willpower, the rank ups do serve to improve the stat distribution of the WL, making them closer to an all-arounder.

WH r1,r2,r3

Well tho the abilty isn't honestly so useful vs good players, especially at higher ranks, the option to get more raw stat on the WH and prevent it from getting weakened is worth it. If you bet on a good tempest, might as well maximize the odds it will happen, you bet on the warhawk itself making that critical r1 tempest, rather than the r3 ability win the match...so making sure that the warhawk has enough str (and armor to protect it + mobility to do it) factors into the investment, as opposed to the RM r3 or SS r3.

WM r1,r2,r3
The warmaster is good at all levels. First hit advantage + constant damage when maimed is good. At r3 the ability does 2/2 to adjacent units. If you play the WM to maximize that first hit and chip away with the remaining wp, you can sacrifice the armor without much concern. Best to run WM with 8-9 armor to prevent SAs and archers from walking up in a gambit.

Kuba
04-17-2013, 09:57 AM
Thrasher gets less efficient with power. Level 1 is 3-5 random damage for 1 will, Level 2 is 4-6 random damage for 2 will.


Just minor correction, level 1 damage is 3-7 random, level 2 is 4-8, depending on number of nearby allies.

Kletian999
04-17-2013, 11:45 AM
The circumstances for getting more than 1 ally on a flail are pretty hard to put together without sacrificing turns unless you were trapped in a tight formation right at the beginning of the game.

kgosser
04-17-2013, 04:54 PM
Excellent thread.

I'm presently experimenting with a lineup just to see how they work individually.

RM r1 - best fit
RM r2 - not worth it
PV r1 - while good, I'm excited to try an r2 next
SA r1 - the extra shieldbreak+fire isn't worth it. r1 for guaranteed 1dmg
BM r2 - wish I would have stuck at r1
WH r2 - have only gotten off a 3-person tempest, but I feel the extra stat armor has made a HUGE difference in his survivability. I'm torn - seems inefficient, but I'm dominating more now.

Butters
04-17-2013, 06:31 PM
I find it fascinating how wildly opinions differ on this subject !
I guess I should spend more time testing those ranks I assumed to be bad/not worth it, because clearly some people get much more mileage out of it than I would have expected.

roder
04-18-2013, 10:19 PM
Also, what do you guys consider good at base level? I occassionally use Shieldbanger and Raider, they fulfill their role pretty well even at rank 0.

raven2134
04-18-2013, 10:42 PM
I'd never keep a varl at base level for a mix power team. Varl have the highest stats in the game, and given their limit (2 in a team) always seems optimal to make sure that 2nd varl is the best one you can use, with the most utility. Not a varl 1 stat short and lacking ability. Given those criteria, I'd say raider is best to keep at base if you had to, since you have 3 human class limit and the base raider still breaks for 4, which is good. Archer 2nd, but only if you're playing puncture (still not a very good idea cos she's 1 str short and 1 ex too little).

Butters
04-19-2013, 12:09 AM
Base classes are all pretty terrible. You'd need a very strong incentive to bring any in a mix power team - I can't think of anything strong enough personally. If you have to, I agree Varl is out of the question. Raiders are weak, but at least you should land a couple of 4-breaks and distract the enemy for a while. Archers seem to be the less worse choice to me, supposing you don't swap out a "real" archer to put new girl in.

raven2134
04-19-2013, 12:36 AM
Lesseee...you'd want a 0 (basic) in your team if you were running:

3,3,3,3,0,0 (unlikely - 2 base units is a huge handicap, despite the extra r3)

3,3,3,2,1,0 (more likely)

3 3 2 2 2 0 (most likely)

I could see the last work, if you just used the raider as a kamizkaze breaker and blocker/bait.

Butters
04-19-2013, 02:49 AM
Apart from your first case, which is admittedly very unlikely, this amounts to choosing to take one r2 and one r0 over two r1s. The power gap between r0-r1 is so much wider than between r1-r2, that I feel you would necessarily hinder your team overall. Even as kamikaze, r0 raiders are not very good ; it's a job a r1 unit (high ex high wp RM comes to mind) would do much better.

This may be a case of my thinking being too orthodox, though. I'd love for someone to come up with a vialbe p12 build that includes a base class.

roder
04-19-2013, 11:12 AM
Sorry I should've remembered the topic, I never meant within a P12 team, I just meant in general which classes are good at rank0. I use the multiple base classes whenever I upgrade units or late at night when the higher powers are pretty much a ghosttown. Sorry for the mixup

raven2134
04-19-2013, 11:23 AM
If you're playing to upgrade, play a power 1 team, is my suggestion :)

Tatski
04-19-2013, 11:44 PM
I'm surprised that some find it hard to upgrade BMs. Although not a must, Rank 2 certainly makes things easier for her. More range means that BMs can do damage outside the movement range of most threats. Extra point in armor also helps.
Units that will benefit a lot from upgrade are WL and PKs. Extra range from Malice allows you to do cool stuff like RoA combos, Pull units on coals etc. FA extra range is very useful, but the more important thing for me is the extra stat point.