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View Full Version : Compilation of suggestions & remarks (just small- & medium-scaled ones, this time!)



Aleonymous
04-23-2013, 07:31 AM
Hello again. This is compilation of issues, small & medium (no big ones this time! ;)), that I'd like to see "fixed" or "addressed" in some manner.

A. Easily-implementable suggestions/remarks. Most concern UI-aspects, not gameplay mechanics.

Strand: The "Banners" and "?" buttons in Strand-menu have considerably different usage than in the rest of the UI/menus.
Strand/PGs: Units' rank circle-icon should be in purple (not red), no?
Matchmaker: Display unit-ranks (kills are not really that meaningful, imo), or at least team-power.
Matchmaker: Display enemy Elo-Ranking, too?
Matchmaker: Ranked-vs-Quick matching. State it clearly when an RM is playing against a QM!
PGs-vs-Battle / Unit attributes order: In PGs, the rank-attribute is first up. In battle-screen it comes last. Why?
Battle: Pillage Font Color. I'd like to see it in Blue/Red when the last is enemy/ally, respectively.
Battle: Rain-of-Arrows landing-icon (when not triggered) is not very clear as to where it was placed. Why not use a purple-tile-box or something?
Friendly-Match: The UI is kinda confusing. Generally, options selectable by both players (map) should be separate from those player-specific (timer, "Ready"). Also, back-and-from the PGs should not pass through Strand. Finally, a clear indication about whether the friend is already in the MM-screen waiting...


B. More complication suggestions/remarks.

Art/Battle: "Special" unit animations at the beginning and at the end of the battle (victory). Some sort of cheering, for example.
Battle/Initial deployment: Display enemy-deployment area & empty-zone, with the grid activated.
Battle/Initial deployment: Display enemy initiative-order too!
Gameplay/Battle: Dead-bodies. How about the tile(s) they occupy hindering movement? E.g. reducing movement-span by 1. When two bodies lie on the same tile, this tile becomes an "obstacle"...
Gameplay/Battle: Display of total team STR/ARM/WP. Its a fast estimate of "how healthy" each team is. *** Also suggested by Yth, Kletian,...
Gameplay/Battle: A button, similar to the "Banners" button, that highlights the entire movement-range possibly covered by the enemy units on the grid (taking into account EX, and assuming max-WP). A similar button for the possible attack-range, factoring WP+EX+Horn and archer-range, would also be useful. Actually, the most difficult aspect of entry-level and mid-level play is counting the tiles and quickly calculating movement and attack ranges :rolleyes:. Many a times I've found myself putting fingers on the screen to avoid placing a varl on-the-line...


Thanks for considering & commenting! :)


EDIT:Appendix

C. Suggestions by other posters on this thread.

Matchmaker: Indication of queue-size or wait-time for Ranked/Quick/Tourney matches. Or some other indication of how many people passed through MM in the last 10mins (per power-level?).
Match-Types: Underdog-mode, for QMs. When activated, the MM searches for stronger opponents. This would reduce the stress of not-finding any opponent at all. Fighting difficult battles is better that not fighting at all.
Battle Renown: Secret Challenges (e.g. finish battle with >X units alive or >Y stars in Horn, use abilities of all your units at least once, kill >Z enemies with a single unit), that when fulfilled they grant a bonus Renown (e.g. +2). There could be a set of 10-20 such challenges, and each player is secretly assigned a random one per-battle; he/she can't know which one it was, unless it was fulfilled.
Proving Grounds: Button for "clear roster". It helps when having large barracks and changing through builds a lot.
Proving Grounds: Being able to save team/builds & unit-stats button, e.g. with 2-3 slots per 6/12/18 power-teams.
Proving Grounds: Left/Right buttons (in edit-unit menu) scrolling through whole barracks and not 6-character-team.
Strand: Daily-Login-Streak renown left. Perhaps make the respective banner "sticky"?

mindflare77
04-23-2013, 07:43 AM
This is probably a stupid question, but regarding A3, wouldn't you already know what rank your units are? Or is there a way to see the kills of the enemy units (that I've apparently not found)?

Other than that question, a hearty +1 to most of these.

franknarf
04-23-2013, 07:45 AM
Battle/Initial deployment: Display enemy-deployment area & empty-zone, with the grid activated.


I'd put this in the "easy" column. It's something I'd like to see, too.


PGs-vs-Battle / Unit attributes order: In PGs, the rank-attribute is first up. In battle-screen it comes last. Why?

Rank describes who a character is and how he/she can be customized. Arm/Str/WP describe the character's status in the battle... Anyway, with rank at the bottom during battle it's still quite quick to see.

Aleonymous
04-23-2013, 07:48 AM
regarding A3, wouldn't you already know what rank your units are? Or is there a way to see the kills of the enemy units (that I've apparently not found)?

I was referring mainly to the enemy units. Seeing their kills too would be a helpful bit of additional info. And, no; there's no way to see enemy kills! :)

Butters
04-23-2013, 07:55 AM
Most are very good suggestions which I would like to +1.
B-4 I think would be too disruptive so I am against, and B-6 would be too confusing IMO (although not compulsory in any way so why not).

raven2134
04-23-2013, 08:18 AM
My thoughts,

A4 is not advisable. This may promote queue dodging.

A5 is also not advisable. This may cause the competitive player to again queue dodge, in favor for a R-R matchup.

A6 because rank was the last mechanic implemented in factions, probably.

A7, well seems more like a preference. You want it to tell you whether it is a Pillage for you or you being pillaged? That's one way to look at it. Another is it's a set phase in the game, so it doesn't require the distinction. I suppose it couldn't hurt, though.

A8, it was probably animated this way to accommodate striking Varl who straddle 4 squares. I am not for a purple square, it breaks immersion when action is animated immersively (without movement tile highlights and etc.)

A9, I agree, those would make FM much better.

B1 Alex said way way back in the beta they wanted to do this. I think it's a good idea, but there are bandwidth (3 devs) and financial limitations to consider. Maybe when they rake in the moolah after saga? We can hope :).

B2, B3 Cool and useful

B4 is a bad idea (I'll say it outright). Varl occupy 4 spaces, making dead units block movement means archers are much harder to reach, varl are much less useful, and you severely hamper the strategic choice of eliminating a unit to clear up space to reach the backline. Movement loss seems complicated too, when the game balance is fine as is.

B5 is cool. Maybe it would be nice as an overlay for replay in the future. I'm on the fence of whether I want it during a battle. I think it's a good line to draw for player skill and intuitive judgement.

B6 similar to B5. You'd likely still suffer from information overload. It would probably be best used as a tool to learn in hindsight.

Don't get me wrong though. I really liked this post/thread. Constructive suggestions always welcome!

Evil Laughter
04-23-2013, 08:28 AM
A small addendum, display how many people are in the queues for quick and ranked (maybe with power level too), or some indication at least as to how many people are online other than friends.

Aleonymous
04-23-2013, 08:29 AM
B-4 I think would be too disruptive so I am against,

That's the idea! Having that bulky varl killed in your front lines should not just mean "ok, the way is clear to charge". In my opinion, it would add some more sense to the waypoint-clicking and general positioning of the squad, adding another "layer" of strategy.


B-6 would be too confusing (although not compulsory in any way so why not).
My initial though on this was just seeing a "union" of what you see when clicking the six enemy units to check their movement range. Nothing more. (Watching Slimsy's stream, clicking on enemy units all the time is kinda stressing!) As for the attack-range, OK, this is more complicated, factoring the archers in (EX,WP,BoP) etc.

Yth
04-23-2013, 09:41 AM
I started the practice of documenting my games by taking screenshots. I realized it is actually a pretty big advantage to have a picture of the loading screen showing the enemy team's lineup / initiative order. I could figure out if my warriors will go before theirs or after theirs, and do my initial placement accordingly. This can only really be done if you know their unit order AND know if you are going first or going second in the game.

If you don't take a screenshot and just try to memorize their heavy hitter's turn order position, it is hard to visualize how it blends with your own turn order unless you have the picture in front of your face.

Personally I think the initiative order should be displayed during team deployment in some way...

SeraphimLoki
04-23-2013, 10:01 AM
A. Easily-implementable suggestions/remarks. Most concern UI-aspects, not gameplay mechanics.

Battle: Rain-of-Arrows landing-icon (when not triggered) is not very clear as to where it was placed. Why not use a purple-tile-box or something?



Thanks for considering & commenting! :)
I second you that. I can never figure out where my enemy put an arrow cuz its always something in the middle of the 4 tiles. Would be helpful to predict his next arrow placement.

Butters
04-23-2013, 10:24 AM
RoA placement is not exactly rocket science either. The arrow always falls on the lower extremity of the trapped square.

Aleonymous
04-23-2013, 11:32 AM
RoA placement is not exactly rocket science either. The arrow always falls on the lower extremity of the trapped square.

Yeah, but when the units are closely packed, banners-on and everything, its difficult to see & remember the tile (the immersive animation, as raven puts it :), lasts for 1-2 sec). Check this image for instance:

http://bannersaga.wdfiles.com/local--files/unit:skystriker/skystriker_RainOfArrows.png

(1) The tile is nicely marked, and the arrow-tip points in the center of the tile. Everything is fine.
(2) The tile is not marked, the arrow tip is on the lower-extremity. If it didn't hit, I would be inclined to think it hit the square just south of the raider...

Now that I know its better; but I've had some issues from this, that's why I'm expressing my thoughts.

trisenk
04-23-2013, 11:47 AM
Now that I know its better; but I've had some issues from this, that's why I'm expressing my thoughts.

+1 to this. It's probably done to not overlap with unit unit animation. So the solution is to leave it as it is when it hits a unit - the unit is stopped on the tile so there's no confusion where the RoA was. But when it falls down on an empty tile, make it land in the center.

netnazgul
04-23-2013, 11:54 AM
Strand: The "Banners" and "?" buttons in Strand-menu have considerably different usage than in the rest of the UI/menus.
That's the thing I'm arguing about right from when Strand was introduced :D


Matchmaker: Display unit-ranks (kills are not really that meaningful, imo), or at least team-power.
kills are useful for promoting, but ranks would be a nice addition/


Matchmaker: Display enemy Elo-Ranking, too?
And that's the second thing I'm desperately requesting. Even not just Elo-Ranking, but other stats possible here.


Gameplay/Battle: Dead-bodies. How about the tile(s) they occupy hindering movement? E.g. reducing movement-span by 1. When two bodies lie on the same tile, this tile becomes an "obstacle"...
I'd say no :)

for other options suggested I have a "don't care" oppinion.

Aleonymous
04-23-2013, 12:38 PM
TL;DR : Why are archers so strong? What led to this particular balancing?

Concerning the "dead-bodies-occupy space" suggestion, in conjunction with Raven's point about making archers more hard-to-get:

Can you guys, that have been around every since the beta, provide some input as to why the archers are so OP? It feels out-of-proportion that archers can cruise at 8STR/8ARM, when decent Raiders feel satisfied with only 10% larger values than those. It even looks odd: If a shield-varl is at ~15ARM and a shield-raider at ~10ARM, then archers should max at 5ARM. The same goes for Strength. If it were on me, I'd nerf archers at 5STR/5ARM-max and buff the Puncture (e.g. +1STR per 1ARM lost, not per 0.5ARM). In this way, archers would very reasonably be glass-canons: they'd need just one hit to kill and they'd only be "good" for finishing-off broken units. High EX (3) also seems too much on archers.

loveboof
04-23-2013, 02:04 PM
Why shouldn't archers be powerful? Do you think you could handle an arrow shot at your chest any better than an axe being swung from close range...

What you're proposing (@ Aleonymous) would only really make them effective in the late game - I'd much prefer them to be fairly well rounded like they are now. You could argue for lower armour I suppose, but lower strength too? Nah. :)

Kletian999
04-23-2013, 02:55 PM
Definately don't like the idea of Dead bodies affecting movement. I would argue it's already too disruptive that they can hide Siege archer coals.

Otherwise a reasonble list.

roder
04-23-2013, 03:19 PM
Battle: Rain-of-Arrows landing-icon (when not triggered) is not very clear as to where it was placed. Why not use a purple-tile-box or something?
Battle/Initial deployment: Display enemy-deployment area & empty-zone, with the grid activated.
Battle/Initial deployment: Display enemy initiative-order too!


These are my favorite suggestions, definitely should be considered. Especially RoA animation is sometimes ambiguous.

I also wouldn't mind extra modes other than Expert, possibly Underdog Mode (increase search range by looking for higher powers from the start), Challenge Mode (gives +2 if complete random challenge ie. win with 3 units left or win with full horn)


State it clearly when an RM is playing against a QM!

Does this happen? Never knew.

Aleonymous
04-23-2013, 04:53 PM
Why shouldn't archers be powerful? Do you think you could handle an arrow shot at your chest any better than an axe being swung from close range... What you're proposing (@ Aleonymous) would only really make them effective in the late game - I'd much prefer them to be fairly well rounded like they are now. You could argue for lower armour I suppose, but lower strength too? Nah. :)

Here's where it comes back to RNG!

I believe that a well-placed arrow can (and should be able to) directly kill a unit. I also believe that such expert shots are extra-difficult (need a little luck?) to make. But, a heavy axe swung at you, could most definitely cripple you, and, then, you would need the luck on your side to survive!

What I'm saying is that, with luck decidedly off the scene, Stoic have somehow "averaged" the hit/damage/block-chances in order to come down to these "effective" values of STR and ARM (+EX,WP,AB) for the units. So, comparing these values, it feels "wrong" to me that archers are on-average much more lethal compared to varl warriors. I don't know about you, but my archers are easily the units with the most kills in any build I've tried.

As a conclusion, I admit that the game is very well balanced in the present form. Also, I would be very reluctant to change anything, so as not to break this balance. It's just that I believe that there could be other balance-points that would be more intuitively realistic...

Aleonymous
04-23-2013, 05:00 PM
I also wouldn't mind extra modes other than Expert, possibly Underdog Mode (increase search range by looking for higher powers from the start), Challenge Mode (gives +2 if complete random challenge ie. win with 3 units left or win with full horn)

"State it clearly when an RM is playing against a QM!" Does this happen? Never knew.

Interesting ideas, and I guess they do no harm to the Matchmaker search-engine. However, challenge-mode should have some sort of price-to-pay, i.e. like the Expert-mode (shorter thinking time).

About QM-vs-RM: yeah, it does happen. When the MM can't find a match of the same-power and similar-ranking from the RM-queue, it might get you faced against a same-power & similar-ranked player from the QM-queue. In this case, your Elo-ranking changes just a little (+2/-2), but it also counts normally on your win-streak. You can't know unless you check w the opponent, or check your HoV ranking pre and post match and notice a +/-2.

Aleonymous
04-23-2013, 05:08 PM
Seems like the "dead-bodies" thing did not land very well on most guys :). It is currently getting a -4 rating... Well, I'll have to admit that it was a <10% chance, with it being a somewhat large-scale change, not a mere perturbation!

raven2134
04-24-2013, 02:41 AM
Aleonymous,

Funny thing actually, can you imagine archers were even stronger before during the beta, and even stronger prior to that?

Stoic mentioned before that during the early days of the game, before the beta, archers could shoot even farther and melee units had more move range. How these two synced together during that time I do not know.

During beta premiere, without Pillage or the horn, archers were THE strongest unit. They closed majority of games, I'm not at all afraid to throw out an estimate like 90% of battles - wouldn't be surprised if this was accurate. They could kite and do outlandish stuff using the turn advantage and range, making them so strong.

To address this, archer move range was reduced from 3 to 2, but given 1 more willpower. This helped a tinsy bit, but was not enough. They still dominated, and it took Pillage to balance archers and get them more in line.

After Pillage, archer move range was returned to 3, willpower was reduced by 1, but to test things (and I mean really test things), Stoic gave archers 6 base shoot range (BM's shot 7 with BoP). This was also during the time Stoic tested 3 varl limit during the beta, and lower armor break across the board (-1 max for all units, starting 0 on some - imagine BMs and SAs up until that point could have 3 base break, BBs and PKs had 4, that's 6-7 break with wp). Nerfing armor break proved to make the game play at a better pace and with a better flow. 3 Varl limit proved to create some imbalance, and worsen the game pace, game flow, and strategy on the board (cos it just turned into walking to the center and hitting each other again and again like brutes). 6 Archer range moved the game closer toward kiting archers, like Pre-Pillage (note there had been no willpower buff yet, and all units had less than they do now, archers had the most).

Eventually we got to where we are today, and the largest changes were willpower buff across the board (+1 for all), SB stat point buff (meaning they get +2 willpower as opposed to the rest), SA ability rework and nerfs, BB str nerf, and class limit change (3 max for a specific base class).

Well, suffice to say, archers were never underpowered and were always "OP"...base archers even without considering the abilities actually. We'd need input from Stoic how this came to be, but suffice to say, even if they were "OP" since you could always bring your own, and the team balance was always tenuous (2-3 archers was where it was at pre-pillage and pre-armor break nerf), cos you needed stuff to defend them), you couldn't really "abuse" mass archers - and people still played largely even games.


RE: your comment about other reward modes/challenge modes...playing expert I think is not really viewed as a "sacrifice" by foregoing the 15 seconds of thinking time for that +2 renown. It can be thought of it that way, but I think it's more an incentive for being able to play proficiently at that level. Doing challenges, like feats, is I feel similar since you need thought and strategy to accomplish what it might entail.

Aleonymous
04-24-2013, 03:37 AM
Thanks Raven. Very interesting recursion, particularly on the point about the "declining" trend for archers' OP-ness! I'll think it out and comment later (now at work).

About the Challenge-mode: what I was saying is that if there's no price to pay (even like the 30-vs-45 secs), then there's no reason for there being a special button to "tick". This mode could be "always on", so you'd just expect it to grant you some more renown (e.g. like the underdog) if you do well. I'm afraid that in such a manner it would make renown-farmers more cruel on newer-players etc. Perhaps if was only available in Ranked matches?

SiberianOrc
04-24-2013, 05:50 AM
Hello everybody! Hello Stoic!
I have one suggestion about Proving Grounds UI: Drop button.
It would be nice to clear roster in one click.
Something like that:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/25691000.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/72167589.png/

raven2134
04-24-2013, 06:07 AM
That sounds cool yea, Aleonymous, Ranked only, would be cool if it was "always on" but random like you'd get 2 optional challenged but would never know which ones until the match started.

Aleonymous
04-24-2013, 06:51 AM
Hello SiberianOrc. I also like your suggestion. This seems an easy-to-do feature, and it's much faster than six click-n-drags. Good for ppl that are experimenting a lot with their builds, and like to start from tabula rasa :)

@Raven: Yup, that balances it even more. Like a surprise "gift"! Ahhh, how I liked my first days in TBSF when the Achievements where unlocked every 2-3 matches :rolleyes: Now, just looking at this Ranking-2400 gives me vertigo (inverted, actually)!

Finally, another "bug-like" thing in PGs I forgot to mention: When browsing the unit-details, the Left/Right buttons on top of the unit-portrait, always & only follow the 6 characters in the current-build. For example, even if you're currently looking at a unit stationed in the barracks, clicking L/R will get you to one of the 6 units selected.

Butters
04-24-2013, 07:40 AM
Finally, another "bug-like" thing in PGs I forgot to mention: When browsing the unit-details, the Left/Right buttons on top of the unit-portrait, always & only follow the 6 characters in the current-build. For example, even if you're currently looking at a unit stationed in the barracks, clicking L/R will get you to one of the 6 units selected.

My guess is that is acutally expected behavior, but I do find that annoying too...

Evil Laughter
04-24-2013, 10:22 AM
Random thought, ability to save teams would be nice, say your p6 and p12 teams

mindflare77
04-26-2013, 11:27 PM
Separate issue from the others being discussed, but I'd like to see how much of the Daily Log In bonus I have left at a given time.

netnazgul
04-27-2013, 12:54 AM
Separate issue from the others being discussed, but I'd like to see how much of the Daily Log In bonus I have left at a given time.
Not that is super convenient, but you can just restart the game for that banner to show up again

mindflare77
04-27-2013, 09:32 AM
Not that is super convenient, but you can just restart the game for that banner to show up again

Fair point. Usually I'm wondering late at night when I'm tired enough that, once I turn it off, I'm going to want to just go to bed instead... But you make a valid point.

Aleonymous
05-06-2013, 11:16 AM
I am reviving this "finished" thread to say that I've compiled some more suggestions & remarks, raised during the discussion. I've appended them at the end of the original post (http://stoicstudio.com/forum/showthread.php?1579-Compilation-of-suggestions-amp-remarks-%28just-small-amp-medium-scaled-ones-this-time!%29&p=20582#post20582). Hopefully the devs will look into some of those... :rolleyes:

Njael
05-14-2013, 01:13 PM
I would like a "banner"-button in my barracks. It should show:
* Total Ranks (or Power) of all chars
* Ranks of different classes with subtypes
* Total kills of all chars
* Kills of different classes with subtypes
* Spend reknown in total

An example for the ranks/kills:
* Archers - Total Ranks 20
** Archers - Ranks 0 (but can have kills if not promoted)
** Bowmasters - Ranks 4
** Siege Archers - Ranks 6
** Sky Strikers - Ranks 10

Kletian999
05-14-2013, 01:43 PM
Another suggestion for the thread- If your turn times out, but you have an action just waiting for the confirmation click, it should execute that action. Everyone has had a turn lost to them at least once from being just a tad too slow with the click buttons, especially when Rain of Arrows or willpower spending toggles were involved. It's the worse feeling ever and can easily cost you the game. There's a near zero chance that someone would have an attack or move waiting confirmation (ok, maybe a move) and want the timeout to cancel it.

If some people would rather not have this feature, it could be a toggle like the 30 second timer.

raven2134
05-15-2013, 06:59 AM
Njael, how does that information help you? It doesn't seem to present anything useful or informative when you already can see things visually.

Njael
05-29-2013, 02:08 PM
@raven: It helps to get a review of all your units. It would also add the number of battles, which is at the moment a bit hidden. When there are more base- and advanced-classes it would really nice to know, how many kills have my units? whom can I promote by now for a higher ranked team? And also just to compare to other players :)

[EDIT] It also would be nice to put units from this table into your roster by clicking a green up-arrow to put them in and a red down-arrow to pull them back to barracks.

-----

And I have another idea ^^ What about an auto-pause after positioning and clicking ready at the start of the game, maybe 30s. Often I use half of my first turn just to check what ranks and stats the units of my opponent have, making a quick plan for movement and how his positioning influence my standard tactic.

Aleonymous
05-30-2013, 01:35 AM
If your turn times out, but you have an action just waiting for the confirmation click, it should execute that action. If some people would rather not have this feature, it could be a toggle like the 30 second timer.

I'd like to have that too. It's not a priority or anything, but most times its better to do "whatever", rather than waste a turn trying to decide...


What about an auto-pause after positioning and clicking ready at the start of the game, maybe 30s.

You mean, after the enemy's deployment and units are revealed, right? I find that also very useful. Laying out a strategy, however crude or fast, is better that dashing headlong into danger and wasting time examining enemy units. It's not crucial (most of us spend our first turns -and the enemy's ones- examining the units, the initiatives, thinking of combos and mitigations etc), but it's surely helpful.

raven2134
05-30-2013, 06:30 AM
Ahh I thought you meant like a summary stat like 10000 total kills, not per character. I see how that would be useful, yea. The total stuff seems like it would be better placed in a personal stat page somewhere.