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View Full Version : Ideas that might help bringing people into Factions.



Rensei
05-14-2013, 09:45 AM
First one is mine - simply let the main hero from the Saga transfer to Factions. Either as the team member (could be a bit imbalanced though) or coach (his stats affect the team - as minor buff, perk (archers have miss chance reduced by 0,1% per hero's level), 1 renown bonus or visuals). With some fine tuning it wouldn't give the campaign players advantage, but would encourage them to continue the Saga fun in Factions. It would also make the Faction only players want to get into Saga (if they wouldn't already).

Second comes from a friend, who I used to play World of Warcraft with. He is now hooked into World of Tanks (yeah...) and told me that the major thing that got him playing the game was that, apart of tank evolution and customization, the crew is gaining experience. Very little each battle, taking dozens and hundreds of games to level up. Upon leveling they gain a perk of the player's choice, that grants some minor bonus. The bonus is low enough not to make any big difference, but it IS there. And players want it. They want it bad. So bad they spend a lot of time sitting in their tanks for 10 minutes to take one shot, reveal their position and get shot (thats how the game looked like from my perspective - so boring!).

Now the perks can't ever get to a level they disturb the balance. It could be either some miss chance reduction, increased chance to hit after run through, reduced chance to miss the last bloody flail hit, eye color change, custom weapon or the last skin unlock.

What do You think?

loveboof
05-14-2013, 10:26 AM
I don't think small imperceptible bonuses will be that attractive to people en masse.

More character customisation, more colours, new units, new maps... These are the things that people want to see! :)

Obviously I want the single player game to get the proper attention it deserves, but I am starting to get a little worried that some people will lose interest before the actual release.

mindflare77
05-14-2013, 10:39 AM
A sort of stable for friend matches. Give them access to all possible units for just friend matches. Makes it easier to introduce people to it and see the possibilities.

Kletian999
05-14-2013, 10:52 AM
In friend matches, I think it would be fun to run teams with no unit limits; Like a 6 Varl match.

roder
05-14-2013, 11:59 AM
Think we also need to focus on keeping the new players, since many come and go.

First - Make the starting sequence (vs AI) replayable, so you can just keep playing it if you want (i know more expansive AI is planned, but this is a quickfix)

Second - Give them 20 more renown so they can start at p4, p1-3 can be a 5 minute queue at times, and waiting long and feeling like the game is unpopulated (even though p6 is almost instant, is probably the reason most of those people leave

Longterm: Make a list of current powers being searched at the moment

loveboof
05-14-2013, 12:08 PM
In friend matches, I think it would be fun to run teams with no unit limits; Like a 6 Varl match.
That could be fun!


Think we also need to focus on keeping the new players, since many come and go.

First - Make the starting sequence (vs AI) replayable, so you can just keep playing it if you want (i know more expansive AI is planned, but this is a quickfix)

Second - Give them 20 more renown so they can start at p4, p1-3 can be a 5 minute queue at times, and waiting long and feeling like the game is unpopulated (even though p6 is almost instant, is probably the reason most of those people leave

Longterm: Make a list of current powers being searched at the moment
I agree that keeping new players should be a bit of a priority.

(The tutorial is already replayable btw...)

roder
05-14-2013, 02:19 PM
Oh thanks for pointing that out loveboof haha

Evil Laughter
05-14-2013, 06:54 PM
Being part of a team is a powerful motivator, if we actually had factions that would be awesome. Maybe this can be implemented like a map campaign from Warhammer for control of Strand

Butters
05-14-2013, 07:18 PM
focus on keeping the new players...

Second - Give them 20 more renown so they can start at p4, p1-3 can be a 5 minute queue at times, and waiting long and feeling like the game is unpopulated (even though p6 is almost instant, is probably the reason most of those people leave

To me this is the most important step in that direction.
Access to all units in friend matches sounds pretty cool too, although I'm not sure how it would work. (special proving grounds ?)

roder
05-14-2013, 10:32 PM
Being part of a team is a powerful motivator, if we actually had factions that would be awesome. Maybe this can be implemented like a map campaign from Warhammer for control of Strand

That sounds really cool. Maybe there can be a collective ELO for factions, and winning vs opposing factions gains more renown, and changes the ELO standings. Don't know what the reward for being in the better faction is though, haha

troopi
05-15-2013, 07:38 AM
This comes as a two way idea. You could create an option for AI battles: Player versus computer, and add some pre-made teams based in the single player creatures. This would push curiosity and keep it fresh for the players, and the developers could use Banner Saga Factions as a testing ground for advanced AI tactics. Also, a method of recording player moves and team composition, could allow the developers to review battles offline , like a tape, and further check Player Tactics that could be useful, or even exploits from the battle system.

raven2134
05-15-2013, 08:03 AM
Troopi, I believe that is the idea/gameplan.

ojustme
05-16-2013, 02:52 PM
I think that buying single player game should give a lot of renown. Let's say 540 so that new players can buy two rank 1 teams straight ahead. I can be made dependant on the progress in the game so that you gain renown for getting to some key points. People rarely play power 0-6 matches now.
And maybe such things as Yth's guides should be advertised or maybe just considered. At least player's attention should be concentrated on 2 points in advanced tutorial:
1) Killing units can be bad
2) Rushing without full-squad support can be bad
I mean that not taking into account this two particular points is why many new players get discouraged and loose match after match. Of course they actually should think for themselves but i see no harm in underlining these things once more in the tutorial.

Veringatorix
05-16-2013, 09:17 PM
I think another idea, one I discussed with raven in chat a while ago is custom scenarios. So in addition to playing matches with equal starting points, allow for player-created maps (so units are placed anywhere and can have edited stats as well as already broken/damaged) these maps are selectable from a list and can either be fought by the AI against the human, or allow the humans to take part on both sides. This idea kinda plays along the lines of the "puzzle" aspect of the Saga, but allows for humans to "puzzle" against each other. Implementation I imagine would not be easy...but it would create diversity, which is a bonus. I know I would be much more active in Factions if there were PvP challenges to take on. ;)

Aleonymous
05-18-2013, 07:37 AM
I agree that friendly-match experience/rewards should be somehow boosted. Several suggestions were made, i.e. more renown, unlockable units, less build-restrictions etc. The obvious risk is that if the friendly matches are "too good", then the QM/RM/T queues will become less frequented.

Another idea on this friend-path: What if introducing a new-friend to the game, and keeping him/her hooked, gives you a big one-time and/or a per-battle bonus? Presently, introducing a new friend, just gives you a one-time +5 renown on the first friendly-match played against him. What I was thinking of is having the new player declare somewhere that "player X introduced me", so player-X gets a one-time big bonus of +50R. Apart from that, each player gain extra renown per battle if his/her friends are also logged-in the game during your battle (or the last 8hrs or something). This per-battle renown could scale logarithmically, e.g. +{1,3,5} Renown for having {1-5,6-20,21+} friends online/logged-in. Ideas such as this are being implemented in many networks that need this social/public scaling (e.g. Dropbox, Gmail etc use/used similar "invitation" that gave bonuses both-ways).

Finally, I guess the release of the Saga, and the shift of dev-team focus towards the Factions, will greatly enrich its overall experience: more maps, units, characters, back-stories, factions (!), cities, caravans etc. From there on, things will probably be easier for Stoic, and the challenge will be keeping a "live-interplay" between Saga & Factions. Examples include Rensei's suggestion of moving Saga-characters into Factions, or ojustme's suggestion of a big renown-bonus in Factions when buying the Saga. I am sure that Stoic have a lot in mind on this subject, and that the Saga's release will open our eyes to numerous new fun ideas & suggestions :).

Butters
05-18-2013, 09:02 AM
Another idea on this friend-path: What if introducing a new-friend to the game, and keeping him/her hooked, gives you a big one-time and/or a per-battle bonus? Presently, introducing a new friend, just gives you a one-time +5 renown on the first friendly-match played against him.
While valid as a concept, this type of incentive reeks of the obnoxious methods usual to the more shady and money-grubbing F2P games out there - Facebook games, even.
I know that would be a big turn-off for me if I was new to the game and saw a "invite your friends and receive xx for free !".

Regarding friend matches, it would be nice to find a system to make it yield some renown (it has been requested frequently) while not being too exploitable. How about making a surrender in friend match give out no renown to the victor ? If you're playing between friends, there should not be any problems of the losing person dickishly surrendering to deny renown, and this would address the biggest exploit threat. With that in place maybe FM can give normal renown from kills, but none from bonuses ? (no win +5 most notably). This way it stays less time-effective as a farming tool than regular matches, but still provides enough for some progression to FM-centric players.

Aleonymous
05-18-2013, 10:28 AM
I know that would be a big turn-off for me if I was new to the game and saw a "invite your friends and receive xx for free!".

Don't get me wrong; I share your concerns at 100%! I proposed this due to the thread topic: get more players to come and to stick to the game... Well, if Stoic want a big-public, they'll have to employ some of those big-public methods :(


How about making a surrender in friend match give out no renown to the victor?

This addressed only the case of a virtuous viking playing against a scoundrel (or another virtuous viking). If there's two friendly "bots", playing & farming renown, this won't stop them, right?


Maybe FM can give normal renown from kills, but none from bonuses? (no win +5 most notably). This way it stays less time-effective as a farming tool than regular matches, but still provides enough for some progression to FM-centric players.

+1. This way you earn some renown and the kills needed for the promotion!

raven2134
05-18-2013, 11:39 AM
Keep the discussion up guys. I think this subject being talked about will provide valuable insights which will be useful as we go :)

Kletian999
05-18-2013, 06:39 PM
Kind of like the "advice you wish someone told you starting out", we should prevent "newbie mistakes".

The first time Dismiss unit is hit, an explanation should pop up explaining how it's far better to recruit new and buy new barracks if necessary. Dismissal should be not allowed if the remaining units cannot form a valid team.

When attempting to promote to level 2 first time, a mention how units 2+ influence team matchmaking and an encouragement to build a wide level 1 roster before experimenting with level 2.

When newly promoting a unit, a reminder how to reapportion points (I found 5 people who thought you can only re-stat a unit once at the power 6 tier last week). Maybe even de-allocate all the points to start and don't let them leave the screen without confirming at least 11 of them. Likewise, if stats have been edited and you try to leave the screen without the confirm button, it should ask to confirm to reset the stat edit.

Aleonymous
05-19-2013, 05:00 AM
Kind of like the "advice you wish someone told you starting out", we should prevent "newbie mistakes".

The first time Dismiss unit is hit...
When attempting to promote to level 2 first time...
When newly promoting a unit, a reminder how to reapportion points...



Yeah, all those points are very-very important. I don't think they are major turn-offs for new players, but it will surely help knowing. Perhaps the Tutorial videos should also include a "chapter" about the Proving Grounds (building teams, statting characters, promoting), an equally important place before jumping in the battlefield.

Rensei
05-19-2013, 09:10 AM
Dismissing should only be allowed if Your barracks are full - there, all problems solved ≧(▽`)≦

Kletian999
05-19-2013, 11:11 AM
Not solved if you dismiss your archers while the rest of the slots are raiders and Varls.

franknarf
05-19-2013, 05:50 PM
I agree with rodereve that keeping players will be important once the next influx starts (after the Saga Ch 1 is released and everyone who plays it wants MOAR TBS). I think the best way to keep players in Factions is to add on social layers, like...


Allowing challenges via chat or other places, as I saw proposed in a recent thread. In online chess programs there's usually just a command like "\challenge username".
Fixing chat, so it's more useful. I don't know exactly how it should change, but it's less useful than it could be. Maybe for starters, set up "tables"/rooms that one can "\join 201" or "\join username" (if each player is allowed to make one room) or "\join help" (to crowdsource answers to the "newbie mistakes" Kletian mentioned). These would have corresponding "\talk channel" commands, or whatever is normally used for this sort of thing.
Make it easy to find the community and stuff outside the game (namely, the forums and wiki). Now that you have a News thing in-game, that helps a lot.
Allow user-generated maps in Friend matches. Also, sandbox (e.g., for "let's set up in these positions and see if I can force a win").


I imagine the chat improvements would take a lot of work -- since, e.g., in-game usernames from Steam are not unique or permanent -- but Stoic is not going to rely on Steam Friends in the long run, anyways, ... and the changes (especially the challenge-via-chat and a help chat channel) could really pay off if/when the next horde of vikings arrives. I guess the current plan is to extend Factions beyond Steam after the full Saga, unless they sell so many copies that they can hire new people to work on it full-time...

Allowing chat channels shouldn't require a big overhaul, though, right? And, maybe challenges could be made by right-clicking a name in chat or something?

Axiom92
05-23-2013, 01:41 PM
wow, i saw a common factor in this discussion...MAKE THE TUTORIAL BETTER!!! not the videos ( which are not working for me btw...i click on them but nothing happens). During the 1st tutorial game let them take a percentage shot, let them miss, let their unit die and then show them the magic of breaking armor and turn advantage...also, I think the tutorial vids need an update as units get altered(nerfed/ability change) too often. People say tbsf is a beta, I cant counter that argument as the game feels experimental to me as-well..ps, still w8in for my story slimsy! XD

franknarf
05-23-2013, 10:12 PM
@Axiom: Of course, you already know how to play, but if you come across someone else who wants to see the tutorials but cannot, they're copied over here (http://stoicstudio.com/forum/showthread.php?868).

I think designing a foolproof interactive tutorial is a lot more work than one might expect, and that's why they tried to lean on videos for all but the most basic stuff. It's been a while since I saw them, but I do recall that they're missing some important stuff, yeah. I hope Stoic has a chance to improve them.

Axiom92
05-24-2013, 04:31 AM
Another solid way of attracting ppl: more skins and more units....I want them (http://stoicstudio.com/forum/showthread.php?1325-New-unit-ideas), ALL OF THEM!!!!! XD

Esth
05-25-2013, 09:26 PM
Let leveled units be run at lower levels, right now you need to keep a full stable of level 1, 2, and 3 if you want variations on your team. This makes leveling bad in a way that is highly counterintuitive.

Kletian999
05-25-2013, 09:35 PM
Downgrading units is a complex feature that won't be used for the Single player game, so the Devs have said it rather unlikely for it to be done.

raven2134
05-27-2013, 05:54 AM
Unlikely for it to be done "at this time" :)

Space_Ghost
05-28-2013, 05:20 PM
I've started playing Banner Saga Factions for a month and I love the game! (I've always liked games like Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics). I think I've already bored some friends talking about Banner Saga and asking them to join us, but for the last few days I'm kinda stopping to play and I think that it may be for the lack of stuff to do with my setup and units. (I know that there is pressure on you guys to create new units, but I think that is VERY important!)

So, as a big fan of Tactics Ogre, I think that the most important factor to make me love the game and play it for years (I think I know it for 10 years or more and I still like to play it) is the level of customization of my troops. Just to have an idea, this game have: 12 male unit classes, 8 female unit classes, 9 creature classes, 9 dragon classes (you could fit 2 dragons on your team, like varls) and 5 beasts. Each character had 4 equipment slots and lots of attributes including element and alignment.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh292/atoth88/Tactics_Ogre/Chapter1/2nd_Battle/Panorama1.jpg

Each class have a very singular way to be played, singular special habilities and very different attributes from each other.

I'm explaining all that just to say that what makes me want to play the game till today is this customization, I can change my strategy and try it for a hundred battles but there are so many strategies and setups that I've never tried and I want to try, that makes it almost endless for me (and enjoyable).

So, it's a long reply but I think it's worth to show you guys about this game in particular (you should play it, there is a new version for PSP) and show that, customization, for us who like strategy games, is very very very... (∞) important to make people like it more and play it for longer.

raven2134
05-28-2013, 08:46 PM
Hi Spaceghost. I think the gameplan for The Banner Saga and Factions in the end (Chapter 3) was/is to have a total of 64 unique advance classes from 16 basic classes (4 per chapter: Factions initial, 1, 2 , 3, total of 84 classes).

Some of the upcoming (though not immediately) revealed basic units are mender male, mender female, spearman, and berserker. We also are still awaiting the 4th class for our existing 4 basic units.

Space_Ghost
05-28-2013, 09:13 PM
Nice, wow that will be amazing! You guys have all my support, your game is awesome, I've lost the kickstart timing but I've already got some renown from the market to support this game as I can (and to have some nice units).