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Myll_Erik
12-17-2013, 02:32 PM
Howdy Folks!

It is a big day for The Banner Saga with our pre-order going live today. We couldn't have made it this far without you. To help continue this saga, make sure to let your friends and family know they can take advantage of 20% off the price if they pre-order the game and they also get the Insane Viking Pack!

**NOTE** KS Backers get the Insane Viking Pack automatically!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zIGKnL9RPI

Alexspeed
12-17-2013, 02:45 PM
Congratulations, just saw it on Steam =)
Finally its there!

When and how will steam keys beeing sent out or be made acessible to KS Backers?

InfiniteNutshell
12-17-2013, 03:12 PM
Hooray, preorders are finally here! Is there a way to order directly from Stoic? If not, which vendor is best in terms of how much of the purchase price makes it to the devs and also in terms of not having DRM?

Yellow
12-17-2013, 04:16 PM
I have been very enthusiastic about this game since i found out about Factions almost a year back, since then, i've been supporting it in any ways i can, financially(bought a signed poster a wile back) , i have recommended it to all my friends, liked all the youtube videos and subscribed to the chanel, liked all the pictures on facebook and shared the announcements, even opened a few threads in the forum about how to improve Factions....

With the previous in mind, i cant really say that i like what this announcement shows and offers. On the contrary, this is a bit of a deal-breaker for me, mainly because of 2 points:

1st - no GoG.com as purchase method( no DRM free neither i might ask? )

2nd, pre-order exclusive in-game content (this goes against my principles and it's the one thing i have been most critic about in other games, that together with all the worthless DLCs we see nowdays.

I really don't know what to say, but the words "happy" or "exited" does not cross my mind right now...

EDIT: Seems i was wrong about the 1st point, since GoG was missing on the pre-order link, i assumed it would not be avanible there, but it is listed on the video description, so i guess it will after all.

hreinnbeno
12-17-2013, 04:23 PM
I have been very enthusiastic about this game since i found out about Factions almost a year back, since then, i've been supporting it in any ways i can, financially(bought a signed poster a wile back) , i have recommended it to all my friends, liked all the youtube videos and subscribed to the chanel, liked all the pictures on facebook and shared the announcements, even opened a few threads in the forum about how to improve Factions....

With the previous in mind, i cant really say that i like what this renouncement shows and offers. On the contrary, this is a bit of a deal-breaker for me, mainly because of 2 points:

1st - no GoG.com as purchase method( no DRM free neither i might ask? )

2nd, pre-order exclusive in-game content (this goes against my principles and it's the one thing i have been most critic about in other games, that together with all the worthless DLCs we see nowdays.

I really don't know what to say, but the words "happy" or "exited" does not cross my mind right now...

1st. It will be sold on gog.com, gamefly, gamestop and gamers gate (and steam).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zIGKnL9RPI
In the text.

2nd. Do agree with that comment highly (regarding the in game content), it feels like an unnecessary banana, person could be travelling around the world for a month and would lose a part of the game just because of a preorder. But I am indeed in love with Banner saga faction, so I will give them that break. Truth is though it just feels a bit sleazy and in this day and age where everything is scrutinised that doesnt help.

Yellow
12-17-2013, 04:38 PM
1st. It will be sold on gog.com, gamefly, gamestop and gamers gate (and steam).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zIGKnL9RPI
In the text.



Ok, i missed that on the description of the video, my comment was based on that "GoG.com" is/was not visible when you click on pre-order (http://stoicstudio.com/pre-order/) , there only "Steam", "Gamefly Digital" and "GameStop" are shown. Thanks for the info!

JohnHaxor
12-17-2013, 11:20 PM
Can't wait for thiss!!!! ^_^

rasattack
12-17-2013, 11:22 PM
Based on the way I read how they've worded things, it's the "Insane Viking Pack" that is exclusive to preorders and possibly not the in-game character. The video says Tryggvi is an "exclusive character," but I'm not sure that actually means he's exclusive to preorders. Maybe it does, but I hope that he will be available as DLC for those who don't preorder.

raven2134
12-18-2013, 03:11 AM
It's just 1 character :) (out of 20-25), I'll check into if he'll be dlc available after pre order period.

Yellow
12-18-2013, 04:45 AM
It's just 1 character :) (out of 20-25), I'll check into if he'll be dlc available after pre order period.

I know its only 1, but still its not just an hollow character, its comes with its own background story, its own dialog lines, and so on.... I really dont see the need of offering in-game content as pre-order exclusive, when there is so much else that could be offered in stead; key rings, maps, artwork, soundtrack(this was included) making off videos and so on... Look at how CDPR deals with its games(Witcher 1 and 2) adn while one can argue that CDPR is a big studio(not really) with lots of money(spend tons of it as well to make those games) lets not forget that The Banner Saga was founded mainly by kickstarter, so the economy issue should not be used as scuse....

Characters offered as pre-order exclusive or even as paid DLC later on just reminds me too much of the way Bioware went about with both Mass Effect franchise and Dragon Age franchise, selling you the game by pieces....

Aleonymous
12-18-2013, 05:51 AM
I know its only 1, but still its not just an hollow character, its comes with its own background story, its own dialog lines, and so on.... I really dont see the need of offering in-game content as pre-order exclusive, when there is so much else that could be offered in stead; key rings, maps, artwork, soundtrack(this was included) making off videos and so on...

Hello Yellow (nice rhyme, btw :)). I don't really mind the pre-order thing; I actually "like" it being a little cheaper or coming with a small bonus-gift. Now, about the Day1 DLC, I can't say I'm extremely excited either; I agree that those other offerings (not in-game content) you mention are much better suited. On the other hand, I don't think this character (Tryggvi) is really essential in the story, nor is he indispensable to win the game or enjoy it.

Unfortunately, like it or not, it's a free market out there so they can do whatever they like. And we are left with the option (?) -- buy it or not. Usually, I don't play/buy games right when they launch; I just wait some months for prizes to drop or bundles (including all DLCs) to come out. However, this game I really like and I also have confidence that StoicStudio is not some money-greedy enterprise, so I can excuse them these small slights :)

raven2134
12-18-2013, 08:11 AM
The Banner Saga is the full game, that has always been the intent.

I think it's more bad practice that has tainted the idea of DLCs, when a developer/studio/publisher purposely or intentionally breaks apart something we can consider a whole product, just to sell it piece-meal to make more money.

There is a flipside to this though, which is the opposite. A studio/developer/publisher can give you a full game, and similar to an expansion but in smaller scale, DLCs may also act as a viable model for providing really significant additional content that could not or would not make it in the initial game release.

Truly, there are justified reasons why many frown upon the prior practice of DLCs (I remember Capcom pulled that crap with one of its games). However, I think it's also fair we really evaluate what the actual situation and context is. I'm sure many fans and players would be happy if a studio/developer/publisher could give them more quality content for one of their favorite games, even after it's been released.

I think the bonus character and pre-order package, like the myriad of privileges laid out for backers, follow a similar spirit. They simply want to show an extra sign of appreciation for people that support the game early. Stoic has always been largely inclusive in it's endeavors with the community, and I think this is just another extension of that.

Aleonymous
12-18-2013, 08:49 AM
I'm sure many fans and players would be happy if a studio/developer/publisher could give them more quality content for one of their favorite games, even after it's been released.

Since I am one of those fans :) -- is there, at this point, any intent for more "quality content" for Saga#1 game (paid DLC or free update/patch etc)?

Yellow
12-18-2013, 08:56 AM
I think the bonus character and pre-order package, like the myriad of privileges laid out for backers, follow a similar spirit. They simply want to show an extra sign of appreciation for people that support the game early. Stoic has always been largely inclusive in it's endeavors with the community, and I think this is just another extension of that.

I don't have anything against the little extra for backers or for pre-orders, its just that in my opinions there are other stuff that could be offered as that little extra, stuff that do not take away from the game, so that those who don't get it, don't feel they are getting a 99% completed game in stead of a 100%, because that is how i am feeling right now.. and i know that was not the intention, am sure the idea was for those who pre-order getting a 101% product, and those who don't a 100% but sadly from my point of view, am hardly getting a 99% if i don't pre-order...

In other words i don't have an issue with What is done, but with How it is done, no matter how un-important that character is, it was done before game release, it has a background story, it has dialog and so on, its not just a hollow character is it?

raven2134
12-18-2013, 10:32 AM
I've no idea about future DLCs.

Stoic is releasing The Banner Saga, Chapter 1, as a full game. At this point.

I don't know if it counts as a spoiler, but to assure you I suppose...based on my playtesting of the game, Tryggvi's only relevance is in battle. He has not come into any other part of the game besides you meeting him, and then you using him if you want to for battle.

hreinnbeno
12-18-2013, 10:39 AM
I've no idea about future DLCs.

Stoic is releasing The Banner Saga, Chapter 1, as a full game. At this point.

I don't know if it counts as a spoiler, but to assure you I suppose...based on my playtesting of the game, Tryggvi's only relevance is in battle. He has not come into any other part of the game besides you meeting him, and then you using him if you want to for battle.

But that is really the thing though. They are trying to use Tryggvi to make you buy it in pre order, while you know like Aleo said that he wouldnt be part of the pre order if he was indispensable or even necessary at all. So it really makes it unnecessary and the deal would only cause scrutiny rather than increased pre order.

raven2134
12-18-2013, 12:51 PM
I duno, I think people are scrutinizing or fussing too much. So Stoic didn't make him available to everyone. I don't see how this is so far different from the KS. KS tiers were at 10 and 25. At 10 you got a copy of the game. At 25 you got the artbook and the OST as well. Now if you pre-order you don't get as much stuff as the KS backers, but we still want to thank you so here's Tryggvi and 3 tracks. It's pretty much Stoic going, thank you for supporting us early. At the same time, they don't want to alienate players that buy the game after release.

Myll_Erik
12-18-2013, 01:10 PM
This has nothing to do with the full game ---

The Insane Viking Pack (at a dicounted price) is meant to be something a little extra for our KS Backers and our fans - an extra character (which doesn't impact the game), one item, and 3 bonus soundtracks + it's at a discounted price.

Yellow
12-18-2013, 01:19 PM
a little extra for our KS Backers and our fans

am i not a fan too? are those who dont pre-order but still buy the game after release date not branded as fans too?



they don't want to alienate players that buy the game after release.

But they are sadly doing just that by making it pre-order exclusive!



I duno, I think people are scrutinizing or fussing too much. So Stoic didn't make him available to everyone. I don't see how this is so far different from the KS. KS tiers were at 10 and 25. At 10 you got a copy of the game. At 25 you got the artbook and the OST as well. It's pretty much Stoic going, thank you for supporting us early.

It is different, because the kickstarter rewards(except for "the crest" and the "god name thing") have nothing to do with in-game, they are extras/bonuses in form of sountrack, posters, art, and so on. Even the crest is just pure cosmetic, nothing else, and the god thing its just adding to the background story, to the lore, something that everybody sees and can read not just the person who got that reward, so it does not affects the gameplay, most people will not even notice it, its just an ego booster to the one that got the reward, knowing that their name and maybe apareance is in the game in form of a god/deity .

I bought a signed poster long ago, that was like 20+ bucks, i will get the game when it released(at full price) that's 20+ more bucks, that is 40+ right? i believe more than most kickstarters gave, no? Yet, have i ever complained about that? No, i know i missed on the kickstarter thing, and when i found out about it was already too late, yet as i enjoyed the game and the concept so much, i gave them my financial support, but i know i have no rights to anything of what was offered to the kickstarters, i do however believe that if i buy this game at release date, i should get everything that was made pre-release and is ingame related, that is the definnition of a full game!


Now if you pre-order you don't get as much stuff as the KS backers, but we still want to thank you so here's Tryggvi and 3 tracks.

As i said before the issue is not giving something extra for those who pre-order, the issue is giving them something that feels right for everyone, something extra indeed, not in-game material that is created pre-release and yet alienated to most players....

Myll_Erik
12-18-2013, 01:22 PM
You certainly are - we're offering a deal. It's up to you if you want the cheaper price + little bit of extra content. We're not forcing this on anyone.

Nor is anyone missing out on anything from the story.

@Yellow - you are correct some people will miss out on the discounted price and Tryggvi by not ordering now. However Tryggvi doesn't impact the game other than giving you an extra character for us in your barracks. He is not a major piece of content and he is not required to complete the game. It is meant to be a nice little extra for those fans who order early (as well as us being able to get a discounted price).

StandSure
12-18-2013, 01:40 PM
am i not a fan too?

You don't sound like a fan to me.

Seriously, Stoic is just trying to incent people to pre-order. It is a sales tactic, and a pretty generous one to the customer. Lower price AND free stuff? You should be saying "sign me up" not crying foul. I can't even believe this conversation is happening.

Myll_Erik
12-18-2013, 01:42 PM
i know i have no rights to anything of what was offered to the kickstarters, i do however believe that if i buy this game at release date, i should get everything that was made pre-release and is ingame related, that is the definnition of a full game!


Well...that's just like purchasing anything else in the world - you get what you pay for, if you get the Pre-Order version you get the Insane Viking Pack. If you don't then you get the retail version. Are you saying that by purchasing the normal edition of Skyrim you should get the Ultimate Edition free or if you purchase the Standard Edition Car you should get the Luxury Edition for free?

Yellow
12-18-2013, 01:49 PM
@Yellow - you are correct some people will miss out on the discounted price and Tryggvi by not ordering now. However Tryggvi doesn't impact the game other than giving you an extra character for us in your barracks. He is not a major piece of content and he is not required to complete the game. It is meant to be a nice little extra for those fans who order early (as well as us being able to get a discounted price).

Sorry Myll_Erik, but for me its not an issue of him being nessesary for completing the game or not, if this was the issue, then nobody would have the rights about complaining about any DLC what so ever, no matter how tiny, un-nessesary or worthless it is.

Javik from the From Ashes DLC for Mass Effect 3, is not nessesary to complete the game, was he?

The issue is that there is not even a single reason for offering in-game material made pre-release as exclusive, there are other things more suited for it. I would understand this if some publisher was pushing/pulling the strings here, but this is not the case!

Can you tell me that Tryggvi does not have any dialog with any other character during the entire story? he does not has any backstory?


Well...that's just like purchasing anything else in the world - you get what you pay for, if you get the Pre-Order version you get the Insane Viking Pack. If you don't then you get the retail version. Are you saying that by purchasing the normal edition of Skyrim you should get the Ultimate Edition free or if you purchase the Standard Edition Car you should get the Luxury Edition for free?

Its different, Skyrim came with everythig that was finished pre-release included, the Legendary eddition was released a year after, and it included all content that was made and released after release date.... Is the banner saga doing the same?

Even so, if you buy the Witcher 3, i know that i will get the Enhanced edition for free when it is released... so how about that example?

I believe am paying for a full product no?

Myll_Erik
12-18-2013, 01:54 PM
First off - you're blowing this way out of proportion. I'm not exactly sure what you're mad about as this is an option for you to get another character + get a better price. It's not mandatory nor does it impact the game.

Secondly - Tryggvi is really just another option for players to have in their barracks and he does not have any major impact on the story. If you dont want him, don't preorder. Plain and simple. He is not required nor does he block any content.

Finally - Once again, he is not added content to the story nor does he impede the story, nor does he give any extra options to the story. To your point, *if* we were selling some sort of prelude to the story or some exclusive part of the story then that would be wrong.

Yellow
12-18-2013, 01:57 PM
Tryggvi is really just another option for players to have in their barracks and he does not have any major impact on the story.

You keep telling me this, but i have asked 10 times if he has any unique dialog or interaction with other characters and/or a backstory, but no answer regarding this has been given!!!

Guğmundr
12-18-2013, 01:59 PM
Like raven and Erik said, the absence of Tryggvi is unnoticeable, and doesn't really affect the difficulty level of subsequent fights, since you already have plenty of characters in your roster at that point of the game. Nor is the exclusive item missed, since there are plenty of similar ones that can be bought with renown in-game. Plus, it's not like you're paying extra, past the regular price of the game, to get these things; you're actually paying less :)

Guğmundr
12-18-2013, 02:00 PM
You keep telling me this, but i have asked 10 times if he has any unique dialog or interaction with other characters and/or a backstory, but no answer regarding this has been given!!!

I don't believe there is any interaction besides the one short dialogue scene where he is introduced.

Yellow
12-18-2013, 02:04 PM
I don't believe there is any interaction besides the one short dialogue scene where he is introduced.

if this can be 100% confirmed then i will shut up...

Myll_Erik
12-18-2013, 02:05 PM
Responded via your G+ and YouTube comment already - but he does not have anything unique about him. He does get introduced (so that he doesn't just fall out thin air) but nothing unique about him. (he is a spearman)

Myll_Erik
12-18-2013, 02:05 PM
Confirmed

Yellow
12-18-2013, 02:07 PM
Responded via your G+ and YouTube comment already - but he does not have anything unique about him. He does get introduced (so that he doesn't just fall out thin air) but nothing unique about him. (he is a spearman)


Confirmed

OK, so i am safe to assume that he is mute during the entire game after being recruited?

Just want to get that as clear as posible so i can shut up once and for all.

Guğmundr
12-18-2013, 02:13 PM
OK, so i am safe to assume that he is mute during the entire game after being recruited?

Just want to get that as clear as posible so i can shut up once and for all.

Okay, just checked with stoic, and was reminded that there is one other conversation involving Tryggvi, to show a little of his backstory and personality. I believe all the units have these one-on-one conversations, so it would be quite strange if Tryggvi was an exception :)

It just lasts a minute or two.

Yellow
12-18-2013, 02:18 PM
Okay, just checked with stoic, and was reminded that there is one other conversation involving Tryggvi, to show a little of his backstory and personality. I believe all the units have these one-on-one conversations, so it would be quite strange if Tryggvi was an exception :)

It just lasts a minute or two.

is this conversation a one time thing, or is it divided?

example 1: during part A of the game when you meet him the first time you "chit chat" a bit with him about his story, then during part B you chit chat a bit more and so on until he has nothing new to say?

or

example 2: all the dialog happens one time when you meet him and that's it, he has nothing new to say later on during the entire game?

Aleonymous
12-18-2013, 02:24 PM
Yellow, I happened to play the preview/demo build/version of the game (where Tryggvi was included) and I can confirm that, too. He shows up in one moment of the story (early on), joins your crew, and doesn't interact with the story after that. So, from that point on, he's just another unit in your barracks to use or not in battle.

From what I understood, actually the story revolves mainly around 10-15 characters, with whom the dialogue & choices are really important and "matters". But, you meet many more along the way that [1] occasionally play a small part in a conversation, [2] have some special event(s) tied to them or [3] just join your team and help in the battles. Tryggvi falls in category [3]. Perhaps there's just some special event further down the road that can lead to his perma-death...? But, from what we've seen, there's supposed to be such events for all major & minor characters of the game.

Slimsy Platypus
12-18-2013, 02:25 PM
Now I'm not sure I can provide any sense on the matter, but as far as the argument on "DAY 1 DLC" goes players feel like a fraction of the complete game are broken off to take more money from the pockets of excited gamers.

In this instance players are given the opportunity to pay less and have an additional character. So essentially, if you are excited about the game here's $5.00 and a character. Earnestly, it seems very strange that people are upset, but I think that is because of the pre - developed conceptions of DAY 1 DLC.

Take a minute, take a deep breath, and look over these options. I am sorry people are upset over this, but let's collectively agree nobody is doing anything wrong here.

PegasusOrgans
12-18-2013, 02:25 PM
Hi, I'm here to represent the quiet majority that doesn't care that you are rewarding pre-orrders with DLC.
Don't be fooled into thinking everyone thinks like these ppl do. I, for one, backed you during your
Kickstarter. If you did a tally of your Kickstarter backers and a tally of the general population
that will buy your game, only a small minority will hav any issue with this. There's a subset of
gamers that don't really game, but hang out in gaming forums and complain incessantly about
what developers and publishers are doing wrong. You'll find that these ppl make thousand page
threads about the silliest and minor of subjects, and blow them out of proportion. They don't seem
to realize there are far bigger issues in the world than pre-order DLC, but you won't find them
getting passionate about slavery, or poverty across the globe because this DLC business is an
easy target. Heck, there's even a forum so you don't have to go outside! Bonus!

raven2134
12-18-2013, 02:29 PM
Alright, and with that, let's chill out. Point is, we're happy that pre-orders are now available. Happy, happy holidays everyone.

Guğmundr
12-18-2013, 02:30 PM
Happy, happy holidays everyone.

Indeed :)

Yellow
12-18-2013, 02:34 PM
They don't seem
to realize there are far bigger issues in the world than pre-order DLC, but you won't find them
getting passionate about slavery, or poverty across the globe because this DLC business is an
easy target. Heck, there's even a forum so you don't have to go outside! Bonus!

Who are you to tell me what it is important for ME and what is not? So because there are "bigger issues" i should not critisise what in my opinion is wrong? just because there might be something more important? if that was the case look at how big the universe is, how insignificant aint ALL issues when you put on that scale?


Alright, and with that, let's chill out. Point is, we're happy that pre-orders are now available. Happy, happy holidays everyone.

Even if i don't sound like it, i am happy about the game being finally out in less than a month! I am! but i cant help it, the way this was handled feels wrong in my opinion, and anyone calling me a troll or branding me as an heretic(not a fan) should really think twice before talking! I am not pre-ordering this, that is for sure, i like to stand by my principles.

Anyways, happy holidays.

raven2134
12-18-2013, 02:41 PM
We're happy you're happy :). I think I just want to avoid a heated discussion (and people calling each other stuff). You've made a fair point, and others have raised theirs. So I think we're ok with having things end here, where it's still healthy.

loveboof
12-18-2013, 04:34 PM
Personally, I was always going to buy the game as soon as it came out, so for me this pre-order pack is perfect! :)

I do understand where Yellow is coming from - in principle I agree with the objections to day 1 DLC, but IMO little pre-order incentives are a different thing.
(Even if Tryggvi was a potentially major character, if you want him just pay less & get him... ?)

InfiniteNutshell
12-19-2013, 01:37 AM
OK, now that that whole discussion has hopefully died down, I hope nobody minds if I reiterate my questions from page 1: Is there a way to order directly from Stoic? If not, which vendor is best in terms of how much of the purchase price makes it to the devs and also in terms of not having DRM?

Aleonymous
12-19-2013, 02:14 AM
s there a way to order directly from Stoic? If not, which vendor is best in terms of how much of the purchase price makes it to the devs and also in terms of not having DRM?

Interesting questions; I'd like to know too. The GoG version (when will that appear?) should be DRM-free. In terms of % cut, I'm sure everything will be more or less the same. I mean, the absolute amount of money going to the devs will be the same while some retailers settle for lower profit.

raven2134
12-19-2013, 05:58 AM
Will have more on this soon (the other vendors).

Jorgensager
12-19-2013, 07:40 AM
I got distracted, so I haven't been on here since March.. then I noticed that the game is coming out soon, and I'm really looking forward to it! :)

I know you finished this discussion already, but I would like to agree that it appears dishonest to make a completely useless character a selling point in an Insane Viking Pack for preorders, regardless of the intention. I.e. it makes Stoic appear dishonest when their intention is to reward preorders, and that the -20% + the tracks would have been sufficient and "cleaner" - that is, without the suspicion that there might be regular useless DLC like Tryggvi. Besides, a useless character isn't really a reward anyway, so if there are no ulterior motives, then I don't see the point.

Please note that I'm not accusing Stoic of anything, but describing the impression it gives and concluding that it might have been a mistake.

Good luck with the release!

Kuba
12-19-2013, 07:44 AM
I ask same question as Aleo, when will GoG version be available? I am also wondering why prices on Steam aren't equal? US version is about 20 % cheaper than EU and UK versions. I will buy the game no matter what, this just made me curious.

Jorgensager
12-19-2013, 07:49 AM
I ask same question as Aleo, when will GoG version be available? I am also wondering why prices on Steam aren't equal? US version is about 20 % cheaper than EU and UK versions. I will buy the game no matter what, this just made me curious.

This is the case for all games on Steam, so I would assume it's their business model to base prices on how much people are willing to pay. I.e. nothing to do with Stoic, and quite annoying for us since it's just a copy of a digital file. Oh well, I can afford it, so I'll just try to enjoy the game!

Aleonymous
12-19-2013, 07:58 AM
This is the case for all games on Steam, so I would assume it's their business model to base prices on how much people are willing to pay. I.e. nothing to do with Stoic, and quite annoying for us since it's just a copy of a digital file. Oh well, I can afford it, so I'll just try to enjoy the game!

Either that or some e-commerce/DRM/taxes policy that differs between the continents. Ask netnazgul how much does it cost in Steam/Belarus :D

Jorgensager
12-19-2013, 08:09 AM
Either that or some e-commerce/DRM/taxes policy that differs between the continents. Ask netnazgul how much does it cost in Steam/Belarus :D

Hm, fair enough, though from countries using neither $, £ or € you pay in the currency Steam decides, which tends to be the most expensive one. Then again there could be "export" limitations.. but I wouldn't think so. It's interesting!

Aleonymous
12-19-2013, 08:40 AM
Hm, fair enough, though from countries using neither $, £ or € you pay in the currency Steam decides, which tends to be the most expensive one. Then again there could be "export" limitations.. but I wouldn't think so. It's interesting!

Actually, it is the other way around. If I am not mistaken, the full game (pre-order?) was like $12 over there! :D

Jorgensager
12-19-2013, 10:29 AM
Actually, it is the other way around. If I am not mistaken, the full game (pre-order?) was like $12 over there! :D

I'm a bit confused. Was it approx equivalent to $12 in Belarus? Because in the € Steam shop it was around €18 or €19 (approx double of $12) which could be explained by typical purchasing power. When I said "from countries using neither ..." I actually only had one country in mind which is generally more expensive (Norway, and yes, I know that was unfortunate wording.. My bad!)... so surely it might seem they base it on how much people are willing (/able) to pay after all?

loveboof
12-19-2013, 03:18 PM
I know you finished this discussion already, but I would like to agree that it appears dishonest to make a completely useless character a selling point in an Insane Viking Pack for preorders, regardless of the intention. I.e. it makes Stoic appear dishonest when their intention is to reward preorders, and that the -20% + the tracks would have been sufficient and "cleaner" - that is, without the suspicion that there might be regular useless DLC like Tryggvi. Besides, a useless character isn't really a reward anyway, so if there are no ulterior motives, then I don't see the point.

Please note that I'm not accusing Stoic of anything, but describing the impression it gives and concluding that it might have been a mistake.

I think the reason people often dislike these sort of things is because it can feel like they are being ripped off, or being milked for as much money as possible from greedy companies.

In this case, the pre-order pack is also at a discounted price! So although it is beneficial for Stoic to receive as many pre-orders as possible, it is being offered as a mutually beneficial arrangement which is clearly not taking advantage of the fans...

Jorgensager
12-19-2013, 04:57 PM
I think the reason people often dislike these sort of things is because it can feel like they are being ripped off, or being milked for as much money as possible from greedy companies.

In this case, the pre-order pack is also at a discounted price! So although it is beneficial for Stoic to receive as many pre-orders as possible, it is being offered as a mutually beneficial arrangement which is clearly not taking advantage of the fans...

The game is (likely) well worth the money be it by preorder or post-release purchase for the art, gameplay and story, so it had no impact on my decision. In my opinion, they would have been better off emphasising these aspects to imply that the game is different, as opposed to giving the impression that they are preparing the industry-standard hidden-costs-DLC-hell (because I don't think that's the case). My point was that it makes Stoic appear worse than they are, and might have been a mistake independent of their intentions since it could scare people away.

The discount is a decent incentive to preorder (in addition to how awesomely promising the game looks!), while the additional* content has been stated to be irrelevant for the game experience, hence seems slightly dishonest as part of the Insane Viking Pack. Additionally the restriction of this irrelevant content to people who buy the game post-release seems rather pointless.. and if they proceed to release it as DLC later, they will definitely lose some respect with me, but I'm not going to make that assumption! I just wanted to point it out so that they could refrain from it in the future. :)

* It's obviously not really additional since it is ready on release, i.e. rather a restriction on the post-release version (which, to repeat myself, I find counter-productive).

raven2134
12-19-2013, 07:34 PM
Hmm, I dunno guys. You can comment about it as you like I suppose. Stoic basically gave people more content for cheaper, period. It's been generally strange that people have been reacting to this in non-happy ways (lol). I think we should be encouraging good practice/examples, rather than sticking bad rep from bad examples into something done well/obviously not to gimp anyone.

Just saying, this discussion hasn't exactly been encouraging/supportive of what Stoic did right, just how the game industry is wrong...

netnazgul
12-20-2013, 03:21 AM
Hmm, I dunno guys. You can comment about it as you like I suppose. Stoic basically gave people more content for cheaper, period. It's been generally strange that people have been reacting to this in non-happy ways (lol). I think we should be encouraging good practice/examples, rather than sticking bad rep from bad examples into something done well/obviously not to gimp anyone.

it is assumed that some people will not be happy when after release they won't be able to get Tryggvi through purchase, so some people are aggravated by this fact in advance :p

Yellow
12-20-2013, 03:51 AM
Stoic basically gave people more content for cheaper, period. It's been generally strange that people have been reacting to this in non-happy ways (lol). I think we should be encouraging good practice/examples, rather than sticking bad rep from bad examples into something done well/obviously not to gimp anyone.

Just saying, this discussion hasn't exactly been encouraging/supportive of what Stoic did right, just how the game industry is wrong...

selected people, while alienating the rest...

but this is sadly not one of those

This is sadly not the case, otherwise people would not be "complaining"

Anyways, for the most part you are right raven! People(including me) are a bit of a foul for specting stoic to be different than your everyday developer, different than lets say Bioware, in this industry with its low standards and bad business practices, we are fouls to believe than an small indie team would do things different.

I guess we will just have to get used to the idea than CDPR is unique and nobody is gonna ever learn from them.

Veringatorix
12-20-2013, 05:44 AM
I think that this is being blown out of proportion for what it is. Yellow you are being very negative about the whole thing, it really isn't worth the amount of time spent on this discussion if you ask me. That said I am also not a fan of DLC that could be included from the get-go being offered as exclusives to pre-order or what have you. Usually in the case of a game sold in pieces I simply will not buy it until it is either bundled into a complete package or very heavily discounted. In either case the vendor is receiving less income than they would have had they simply put everything in at the beginning. In this case however, while I do not agree with the choice made by Stoic in principle, I think it is not so damaging as many other methods of this particular practice.

Yellow
12-20-2013, 06:13 AM
I think that this is being blown out of proportion for what it is. In this case however, while I do not agree with the choice made by Stoic in principle, I think it is not so damaging as many other methods of this particular practice.

I will not argue with you on that, maybe we are making to much fuss about it, true. Maybe it is not as damaging/as bad as other companies do, true!
But in my book, "less bad" is not good, it is still bad.



Yellow you are being very negative about the whole thing, it really isn't worth the amount of time spent on this discussion if you ask me.

I will not argue on that neither, but it is because i care about this game and about the company that is making it, that i talk.

I have seen many good companies(Bioware, Maxis, Creative Assambly) and game series(Total War, Mass Effect, Company of Heroes, The Sims, Warhammer 40k, Dragon Age) that i loved, ruined because of this, and while this particular issue is somewhat tiny, remember that everything bad, begins with something small, as The Boss's song says, "you can't start a fire without a spark"

Jorgensager
12-20-2013, 06:58 AM
Hmm, I dunno guys. You can comment about it as you like I suppose. Stoic basically gave people more content for cheaper, period. It's been generally strange that people have been reacting to this in non-happy ways (lol). I think we should be encouraging good practice/examples, rather than sticking bad rep from bad examples into something done well/obviously not to gimp anyone.

Just saying, this discussion hasn't exactly been encouraging/supportive of what Stoic did right, just how the game industry is wrong...

It's hardly additional content when it's ready and implemented on release; it only restricts the post-release version, which is the industry-standard I think should be avoided. Good practice is also encouraged by pointing out the mistakes; it's a word of caution because I want them to do well.

Besides, it's obviously a lot easier to be critical than constructive, which is why we focus on that. :p That said, I have tried to be constructive by saying why I think it is a mistake and mentioning the things I think they have done right (pretty much everything else, which includes creating what promises to be an awesome game). It's hard to come up with alternative incentives since the game looks so great that it's more than sufficient incentive in itself.

The discount and tracks is generosity (i.e. good incentives), the content may be good intentions but inevitably clutters things. :)


it is assumed that some people will not be happy when after release they won't be able to get Tryggvi through purchase, so some people are aggravated by this fact in advance :p

Funny because it's true! I don't want it to cause problems for Stoic since they seem to have done everything (else) right.

Slimsy Platypus
12-20-2013, 10:15 AM
I have seen many good companies(Bioware, Maxis, Creative Assambly) and game series(Total War, Mass Effect, Company of Heroes, The Sims, Warhammer 40k, Dragon Age) that i loved, ruined because of this, and while this particular issue is somewhat tiny, remember that everything bad, begins with something small, as The Boss's song says, "you can't start a fire without a spark"

Yellow / Jorgensager - I now understand the argument of why the pre-order system can be bad when developers use it as a tool to get people to pay more money on their games that they may not have gotten it otherwise after reading a review. Regardless if we agree that it's a bad business practice, I do not understand why it is an issue specifically in this case: Stoic is trying to reward followers of the game INCLUDING non kickstarters, by DECREASING the price on the pre-order which (from my understanding) will nullify most anti-preorder arguments (they obviously aren't out to take more money from anxious gamer's pockets). Yet, here they have been labeled as "dishonest", using "bad business practices", "bad", and guility of "alienating" players.

Simply for my understanding and to keep the conversation constructive: can you explain to me why in this instance, Stoic's preorder is "dishonest", "bad business practice" or just "bad". For me personally, I see it as a way for them to reward those that have followed the game closely, but have not been able to participate in the Kickstarter. Why is providing a $5.00 discount, and an additional non-essential character alienating players? (is it because you feel like you can't preorder because most preorders are bad, although this one might not be?)

I seriously don't understand how this is dishonest or bad business practice. Can you help me understand why?

quartex
12-20-2013, 10:27 AM
I have no problem with Stoic offering a discount when pre-ordering a game. It's a standard way to allow fans to get a discount for ordering the game early.

It's the practice of offering exclusive content for pre-orders that make me unhappy. I understand the reasoning behind it, but not matter how non-essential the content is, I don't like the idea of some people getting to play a game with more functionality because they purchased the game before it was released. I agree we're making a mountain out of a molehill, but it's be happier if everyone had access to the same game. Why is adding extra music tracks or wallpapers okay, but adding a character to the game not okay? I admit it's an arbitrary distinction, but the former feels like extra items unconnected to the game, and the latter feel like altering the gameplay experience itself. I guess I don't like the idea of saying to a friend, I like playing with this Tryggvi character, oh but you can't get him because you didn't pre-order the game, and he's no longer available.

Just my 2 cents.

Yellow
12-20-2013, 10:34 AM
Stoic is trying to reward followers of the game INCLUDING non kickstarters, by DECREASING the price on the pre-order which (from my understanding)

That is all fine and i have never said i have an issue with the pre-order being cheaper, neither i have an issue with the extra material like the soundtrack, that is all very good!



Yet, here they have been labeled as "dishonest", using "bad business practices", "bad", and guility of "alienating" players.

Sadly, offering a full character(no matter how irrelevant) made pre-release, as a pre-order exclusive is a way of alianating anyone who purchases the game post release. As they are not getting a full product

Is like me buying a brand new car for full price, and not geting any seats. While you can drive the car around with no issues even with no seats, it does not feels very confortable does it?


I see it as a way for them to reward those that have followed the game closely, but have not been able to participate in the Kickstarter.

But just becouse someone decides to wait until release date to buy a product, does that means they have not been following the game closely?

This is an argument that has been discussed in way too many forums, just because i love a brand, does not means i have to give them my money for something that is not out in the market yet, why should i? Even if i trust a studio, like i did with Bioware, with Maxis, with CA, does that means trust can not be lost? that i have to be a loyal subject even after they betray my trust?

The issue with Stoic is that they are not even a known studio, they have not released a single product yet(exept for FTP factions), why then should i trust blindly in that the game is gona be good? I do wish and hope for it to be good, am almost certain that it will be, and i don't mind spending 10bucks more if i dont pre-order, i do however mind that even if i am paying 10 bucks more, i will not be geting the FULL PRODUCT.

Jorgensager
12-20-2013, 10:44 AM
Yellow / Jorgensager - I now understand the argument of why the pre-order system can be bad when developers use it as a tool to get people to buy their games that may not have gotten it otherwise after reading a review. Regardless if we agree that it's a bad business practice, I do not understand why it is an issue specifically in this case: Stoic is trying to reward followers of the game INCLUDING non kickstarters, by DECREASING the price on the pre-order which (from my understanding) will nullify most anti-preorder arguments (they obviously aren't out to take more money from anxious gamer's pockets). Yet, here they have been labeled as "dishonest", using "bad business practices", "bad", and guility of "alienating" players.

Simply for my understanding and to keep the conversation constructive: can you explain to me why in this instance, Stoic's preorder is "dishonest", "bad business practice" or just "bad". For me personally, I see it as a way for them to reward those that have followed the game closely, but have not been able to participate in the Kickstarter. Why is providing a $5.00 discount, and an additional non-essential character alienating players? (is it because you feel like you can't preorder because most preorders are bad, although this one might not be?)

I seriously don't understand how this is dishonest or bad business practice. Can you help me understand why?

For me personally it makes no difference because the game looks great and I want it, so I have preordered (so I don't forget about it). My opinion is that this should be the reason for preordering. If other incentives are provided, then that is good as long as the incentives are actually direct incentives for the player, rather than a list of things they will miss out on if they don't pay upfront.

I think I've been constructive in my previous posts and explained why I don't think the content works as a purely friendly incentive, but I can repeat myself: There is no good reason to restrict content which has been developed and implemented by the time of release to those who preorder. This is not providing additional content to preorders, but restricting those who buy post-release. Additionally, Stoic has pointed out that the content is irrelevant for the game experience, which makes me think that it is slightly dishonest to use it as an incentive to buy the game in the first place and to include it in the Insane Viking Pack (because the name implies that it is special). Conclusion; If I hadn't known anything about the game or its developers, I probably wouldn't have bought it because of this. In my current position, however, I wouldn't have to deal with the sneaking doubt and uncomfortable feeling (by association to regular DLC-hells), however tiny, if they could refrain from restricting the extra content to preorders, so I hope they will consider this in the future.

I believe my position when it comes to this specific case is quite different from that of Yellow, and I hope that is also clear from my other posts in this thread. :)

Slimsy Platypus
12-20-2013, 03:28 PM
Thanks guys for the response. I do find the conversation very interesting.

@Yellow - I do understand your point on alienating players better now and I do agree that portions of that argument are valid. It does suck when you learn about a game late and miss out on pre-order exclusives, especially if there is some type of advantage during the game that you will have giving you a better chance of success if you've gotten it. Although, I'm not sure we can definitively say that this is a real problem as none of us know what type of advantage Trygvvi (or whatever his name is) will bring at this point. At face value were getting another character that we know is not exclusive in his abilities and we know we will have as many as 25 characters and only be able to use 6 at a time; those indicators make me sort of think that he is almost a near cosmetic choice, but obviously the verdict's still out.

I certainly don't want to argue for argument sake, but I don't think your car analogy is spot on, as seats are a requirement to drive a car. Maybe a better analogy might be saying the preorder deal is more like getting your car without a stereo or sunroof, as certainly people who don't preorder are still going to be able to drive their car down the street (i.e. they're going to be able to play the game).

I really don't want to start a non-constructive argument, but when you respond to me stating that in my opinion I think "I see it as a way for them to reward those that have followed the game closely, but have not been able to participate in the Kickstarter" by implying that I mean if you haven't preordered you haven't been following the game... I don't think I need to state that that doesn't seem like a logical conclusion from what I have said. That response makes me think you just want to argue over semantics rather than an issue at hand - which is fine, but probably not going to help convince anyone of anything.

@Jorgensager - I certainly wasn't trying to imply that your responses weren't constructive, and I'm sorry if I did! I was more referring to the statements along the lines of "X, Y, or Z is some-negative-adjective" that didn't have any reason or argument attached to it as I am trying to get up to speed with all this. After reading your response I actually do agree with everything you said in that last post, and thanks for summing it all up so well!


As a final note: my first reaction to the pre-order was "wow this is cool, but some people are going to hate it". There just is such a strong hatred for "DAY 1 DLC" because of all the issues we touched on in this thread. One day if I have to reinstall The Saga, or for some other reason have to play it from a platform other than my pre-ordered code - sure, it's going to suck and I might even curse the old gods! I'm a completionist when I play games, and I like to have everything, which makes me sympathetic to portions of the argument that this is "bad". But in the end, when I think of this in a vacuum: that being the inclusion of a pre-order discount and some exclusive soundtracks and a character - I just don't see Stoic maniacally laughing behind their desks somewhere because they have plotted to screw over powerless gamers. I just don't believe that's the case. So it's hard for me to put my foot down and say "hey! this is bad", because I honestly think it's kind of good. Aleonymous (and all the others like him) - a backer that learned of the Saga's existence too late, is going to get an exclusive character and some stuff. I just see it as a way of saying thanks to those people who have helped develop this community and support the origins of Stoic (in more ways than simply monetarily). To me, that's not "bad". Regarding everything else, I think we can happily agree to disagree :)

Yellow
12-20-2013, 04:34 PM
@Slimsy Platypus

The car analogy was not very good yea, i merely used it because of Myll_Erik had made one similar earlier, the stereo/speakers example that you mentioned is more fitting, yes!
Also, sorry if i gave you the impression that i am just arguing for the same of arguing, i am not, but after 10+ comments(most of them a somewhat repetitive) on the matter one tends to loose it a bit, and gets a bit annoyed, sorry if i sounded hostile to you or any other, that was not my intention.

loveboof
12-20-2013, 04:35 PM
The game is (likely) well worth the money be it by preorder or post-release purchase for the art, gameplay and story, so it had no impact on my decision. In my opinion, they would have been better off emphasising these aspects to imply that the game is different, as opposed to giving the impression that they are preparing the industry-standard hidden-costs-DLC-hell (because I don't think that's the case). My point was that it makes Stoic appear worse than they are, and might have been a mistake independent of their intentions since it could scare people away.

The discount is a decent incentive to preorder (in addition to how awesomely promising the game looks!), while the additional* content has been stated to be irrelevant for the game experience, hence seems slightly dishonest as part of the Insane Viking Pack. Additionally the restriction of this irrelevant content to people who buy the game post-release seems rather pointless.. and if they proceed to release it as DLC later, they will definitely lose some respect with me, but I'm not going to make that assumption! I just wanted to point it out so that they could refrain from it in the future. :)

* It's obviously not really additional since it is ready on release, i.e. rather a restriction on the post-release version (which, to repeat myself, I find counter-productive).
Well if you don't like the pre-order incentive and will lose respect for Stoic if they release Tryggvi as DLC later, they're kinda 'damned if they do, damned if they don't' now (that they have advertised the insane viking pack) right? What if there was eventually DLC of multiple completely new characters, of which Tryggvi was simply one of many?

On the whole though, I think I agree with everything you said above tbh. But...

For me personally, I see it as a way for them to reward those that have followed the game closely, but have not been able to participate in the Kickstarter.
This is exactly how it feels for me! I am happy to forego my general preference for avoiding pre-orders in this instance because I feel supportive of this company & game, but missed out on the kickstarter.
___________


Is like me buying a brand new car for full price, and not geting any seats.
I think it's more like losing out on an extra cup holder lol, but if it has to be the seats, maybe the colour scheme or fabric or something? :P

Jorgensager
12-20-2013, 05:10 PM
Thanks guys for the response. I do find the conversation very interesting.

@Jorgensager - I certainly wasn't trying to imply that your responses weren't constructive, and I'm sorry if I did! I was more referring to the statements along the lines of "X, Y, or Z is some-negative-adjective" that didn't have any reason or argument attached to it as I am trying to get up to speed with all this. After reading your response I actually do agree with everything you said in that last post, and thanks for summing it all up so well!


If it was unclear I thank you for letting me know and am glad I could clarify! :)

I could probably also mention that phrases like "make Stoic seem worse than they are" are relative, where "worse" does not imply bad. I rather tried to state the opposite, from a "please don't scare people away since there is nothing to be afraid of"-point-of-view (and can see that that is not necessarily obvious, depending on how you read).


Well if you don't like the pre-order incentive and will lose respect for Stoic if they release Tryggvi as DLC later, they're kinda 'damned if they do, damned if they don't' now (that they have advertised the insane viking pack) right? What if there was eventually DLC of multiple completely new characters, of which Tryggvi was simply one of many?

On the whole though, I think I agree with everything you said above tbh.

(...) I am happy to forego my general preference for avoiding pre-orders in this instance because I feel supportive of this company & game, but missed out on the kickstarter.


I think the content (Tryggvi) was a bad idea as incentive (though rather harmless in the current implementation), and it might cause them trouble, but I certainly hope it does not, since I care about their success and the game's quality. The problem as I see it is if they crank this up a notch in the saga part 2 release, for example, which is why I urge them to avoid that now, well ahead of time. But yes, from my strict interpretation, they are slightly 'damned since they won't' now (that they have advertised the insane viking pack).

If they eventually develop some actual game content as DLC and decide to throw him in as well (as a bonus to the post-release purchases), I would obviously not mind.. More specifically, I think it would be the best remedy since the Insane pack has already been announced (as long as that does not affect the price/quality of the overall DLC content). I.e. my beef would be with charging extra for content which was fully developed by the game's release.



(...) I am happy to forego my general preference for avoiding pre-orders in this instance because I feel supportive of this company & game, but missed out on the kickstarter.


Seems like we agree! ;)

Michael_Kpow
12-20-2013, 10:16 PM
This game is epic. I honestly believe the beauty, depth, heart and challenge this game possesses will make you forget this thread once the game is released. I'm extremely proud to have been a part of it, and hope you all enjoy it as much as I did working on it.

Aleonymous
12-21-2013, 07:00 AM
The character that has caused so much talk in this thread...

http://stoicstudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/tryggvi_5001.png

I wonder what do the "runes" tattooed on his fingers/palms mean. There's also some "inscriptions" on the shaft of his spear. It would be really cool, lore-wise, if Stoic has also devised some sort of mystical alphabet for their world. I imagine far fetched scenarios in future games where you gotta solve riddles/puzzles and stuff that require knowledge of this glyphs etc. Stuff like that add so much depth in fantasy worlds. Prominent example is Tolkien, who created/devised both languages (e.g Quenya) and scripts (e.g Cirth or Tengwar) :rolleyes:

Saibashi
12-21-2013, 03:46 PM
I think Tryggvi should be the official mascot for Banner Saga :D

Wintersong
12-21-2013, 04:00 PM
I think it's more bad practice that has tainted the idea of DLCs, when a developer/studio/publisher purposely or intentionally breaks apart something we can consider a whole product, just to sell it piece-meal to make more money.

There is a flipside to this though, which is the opposite. A studio/developer/publisher can give you a full game, and similar to an expansion but in smaller scale, DLCs may also act as a viable model for providing really significant additional content that could not or would not make it in the initial game release.
Having read the whole thread, still feel the need to comment on this. Maybe I'm old school in the grognard line so my apologies. But if you are deviating resources (people, time & money) to create extra content, before the release of the game, that won't be accesible to all the buyers on release day... sorry, but that is the first paragraph of the quote. Even if you are developing such character after having done the rest of the game (100% of it!!!), release date is still far away (unfortunately for us!). Burning disks wit the game? Considering the reliance in patches these days (ergo internet), the extra content could go in the patch as well holding hands with the bug fixes or improvements.

Maybe I'm weird but a discount in price would be an enough incentive to preorder (prepurchase). Having some extra tracks, wallpapers and such, would be good too. Extra playable content (which in this thread has been basically defined as unimportant) being offered before relase (or day 1 DLC) means that you are not offering people the full game. People who doesn't preorder doesn't get that content on release day despite you have been working on it before release (or get it paying extra if you later offer it as DLC).

Digital way means things like not being able to offer boxes, cloth maps and other non digital traditional preordering (prepurchasing) bonuses. Despite that and many people trying to sell us that DLC content for preorder(prepurchase) and day 1 are ok, they are not. Things change but not all the changes are always good (now everything is Early Access, buggy releases are expected, needing multiple patches to make some games playable is not unheard of...). In defense of Stoic, at least the DLC character is not important which is far better than the "super duper weapons" DLCs of some games and stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I just wish that everybody could get everything (in game content) on release without "pacts". Once the game is out and some time has passed, everything is fine in the line of expansions/DLCs. I still remember how annoying it was the Colour preorder bonuses for Dawn of War 2.

Sorry for the rant. Not trying to change anyone's mind.

Leartes
01-10-2014, 10:04 AM
I type this now, at the bottom of page 1. Having exclusive content INSIDE the game that cannot be aquired otherwise is a serious reason to not buy the game and not advertise it to others. I'm perfectly willing to wait out the preorder phase and pay more! I'm not willing to randomly miss content because I'm waiting on release and not constanly checking for special offers.

EDIT after reading the rest:
I stand by the point that it is not acceptable to make content exclusive that cannot be aquired by any other means but pre-order.

It does not matter if the content has minor impact and that it is cheaper. Money is not the issue, exclusivity is. 1-day dlc is bad mannered, 1-day dlc that can't be bought past that point is a really really bad business practice.

I mean yeah, it works. I will preorder. Because I randomly stumbled over this when I missclicked a bookmark. If this had not happend I would have checked back on it on 15 january and I'd missed the whole thing. This thought makes me super angry!

Aleonymous
01-10-2014, 01:31 PM
I stand by the point that it is not acceptable to make content exclusive that cannot be acquired by any other means but pre-order.

Time is the only thing that can't be reversed, eh? I agree there, but I am not so steadfast on the matter. I mean, I liked this game so much that this community became part of my life. So, it would have been hard for me to miss the pre-order. But, I repeat, I agree that exclusive in-game content is not good.


I mean yeah, it works. I will preorder. Because I randomly stumbled over this when I missclicked a bookmark. If this had not happend I would have checked back on it on 15 january and I'd missed the whole thing. This thought makes me super angry!

I know how this would feel. I missed kickstarter on TBS and was super hyper ultra disappointed afterwards. How's that for time-restrained exclusivity? :D

franknarf
01-11-2014, 06:38 PM
Just saying, this discussion hasn't exactly been encouraging/supportive of what Stoic did right, just how the game industry is wrong...

Well, have a word of mild support from me: good on ya. Also, congrats on becoming part of the dev team, Raven!

I find Firaxis' day-one DLC policy quite infuriating. I am a sucker for pre-ordering their games and dislike the fact that they already have five $5 add-on packs available at launch. They're just trying to milk their loyal customers for as much as possible. Most such games are so huge that I won't play them long enough to miss their DLC and am (grudgingly) willing to wait until the "complete" game comes out (instead of buying piecemeal) before checking them out. Milking fans is not what Stoic is doing here, but a company that is open to DLC at release will probably have five or six DLC packs before a "complete" edition is released, which is a serious turn-off. Bad business practice as far as Stoic's reputation is concerned? Probably. As jorgensager said, if I hadn't been following this game, this would look very bad to me and would lead me to wait for a heavy discount/bundle or a very positive reception on RPS. And, on recommending the game to anyone else, I'll feel obliged to warn them about possible five-dollar-and-dime-ing down the road with future DLCs.

In principle, DLC can also have a second use: convincing people to buy a game without first having the chance to read reviews (which are only up after release). Although that may not be what motivated Stoic here, I guess that could be a side-effect. This hasn't bit me very often, personally.

On the other hand, I don't know what else they should do with extra single-player material they put together that fits most naturally in the first chapter, but wasn't actually part of the roadmap for the released game...As loveboof said, they're sort of damned if they do, damned if they don't. Anyway: I give it mild support because I want to get stuff related to this particular game asap, and I want Stoic to do well financially (by actually getting paid for work) so that we see the full Saga and more!

Leartes
01-11-2014, 06:40 PM
I know how this would feel. I missed kickstarter on TBS and was super hyper ultra disappointed afterwards. How's that for time-restrained exclusivity? :D

Exactly, I also missed kickstarter and I made sure to buy all skins and eternal boost and stuff in factions mostly to contribute in some way. I was happy when I learned there are is no ingame content I missed with the kickstarter (though I was disappointed to learn I can't contribute a crest anymore).

Time constraint is really really bad. You could ridiculously overprize and it would be equally bad, but time is among the worst things you can do. Also it makes no sense at all. You get a few more pre-orders (which earn you less in this case) and then you get an eternity of angry/disappointed people afterwards. Seems like a strong move to get fans for the company - not.

hreinnbeno
01-11-2014, 08:06 PM
Exactly, I also missed kickstarter and I made sure to buy all skins and eternal boost and stuff in factions mostly to contribute in some way. I was happy when I learned there are is no ingame content I missed with the kickstarter (though I was disappointed to learn I can't contribute a crest anymore).

Time constraint is really really bad. You could ridiculously overprize and it would be equally bad, but time is among the worst things you can do. Also it makes no sense at all. You get a few more pre-orders (which earn you less in this case) and then you get an eternity of angry/disappointed people afterwards. Seems like a strong move to get fans for the company - not.

But time constraint does exist in life on all levels and is something necessary for life to continue. If you stop time constraints there will only be chaos.

Truth is though, you have to pay your bill monthly (that is a time constraint in a way), you get your salary monthly (that is a time constraint), game is only published once (that is a time constraint).

Those that play the game straight after lunch will play a different version than those 5 months later with and without in game exclusives. Mainly because the game is a lot more likely to be bugged when it is published. That will happen. A lot of people wait to buy games until some idiots have played it for them and got rid of the bugs/ bad game designs. Is that fair. I really dont think that is fair but that is life. What if the idiots get an incentive to be ready to be idiots, to bet on the game when it is published. It is not enough to be lower price as that will happen in the end either way (after a year the price will probably have lowered like it is for all games) or the soundtrack (You can get that rather cheap either way).

The truth is if you go to a game at a later time point you are more likely to have less bugged game (as well better designed) and get it cheaper. Is that fair? No that is not fair. But that is the effect of opposite time constraint. But life isnt always fair. In game exclusives are not fair, but there are other billion things that are not fair either. That is life.

Aleonymous
01-12-2014, 02:17 AM
...I also missed kickstarter...

What would you do if something like this "appeal" (http://stoicstudio.com/forum/showthread.php?1777-An-appeal-%28of-one-who-missed-the-KS-backing%29) came to be? Some studios (like inXile @ Numenera (https://torment.inxile-entertainment.com/store)) "asked" for the money as a mere donation, and gave almost the same rewards as the original KS backers, at similar $-tiers. Yet, other studios (e.g. Heart Machine @ HLD (http://www.heart-machine.com/)) gave similar rewards through Humble-Bundle like deals... Not Stoic.

As you can see on that thread I posted, Stoic Studio didn't go that way, even though it doesn't seem so "difficult" to do, especially after they brought a publisher (Versus Evil (http://vsevil.net/)) to their host. Why? Well, in my opinion, because they are guys with ethics that stick to their word and keep faith to the crowd-sourcing scheme that helped improve their game so much. If all those accusations of them "milking the Factions cow" were true, they would have opened such deals in no time, now, wouldn't they?

I am really curious to see how they are gonna handle the game's success (?) with respect to funding the development of the second part of the trilogy....

Leartes
01-12-2014, 05:21 AM
But time constraint does exist in life on all levels and is something necessary for life to continue. If you stop time constraints there will only be chaos.

[...]

but there are other billion things that are not fair either. That is life.

Gaming is something people do in their free time for fun. This is an area of life where you can decide if you want to go with the unfairness or if you want to take your money somewhere else. There is no reason to force unfairness and unfun onto players just because in other parts of life there is unavoidable unfairness.

I sincerely hope devs would not use your argument for their decisions on exclusive content. It would shed a very bad light no them.

Take the recent AMA on reddit for example. Question 3 from top atm "Without giving any spoilers - who is everyone's favorite characters and why? " First answer: "John: Tryggvi - because he is nuts and has an awesome necklace worthy of a parade." Every release day review can quote this with the addition "you will never be able to get to know this guy :P".


What would you do if something like this "appeal" (http://stoicstudio.com/forum/showthread.php?1777-An-appeal-%28of-one-who-missed-the-KS-backing%29) came to be? Some studios (like inXile @ Numenera (https://torment.inxile-entertainment.com/store)) "asked" for the money as a mere donation, and gave almost the same rewards as the original KS backers, at similar $-tiers. Yet, other studios (e.g. Heart Machine @ HLD (http://www.heart-machine.com/)) gave similar rewards through Humble-Bundle like deals... Not Stoic.

Since I visit kickstarter infrequently and often find projects only long after they have been funded I regularly take part in this type of post-kickstarter crowd-funding. Being a kickstarter backer is nothing special it only shows your support. Support shown in a different way should not be treated differently.

Also the whole "milking factions" part is just a stupid missunderstanding. I can't remember a good strategy game with a innovative combat system that didn't do large playtests. Factions is such a test with a very inefficient monetization scheme that allows players to donate a bit money if they feel like it.

hreinnbeno
01-12-2014, 06:06 AM
Gaming is something people do in their free time for fun. This is an area of life where you can decide if you want to go with the unfairness or if you want to take your money somewhere else. There is no reason to force unfairness and unfun onto players just because in other parts of life there is unavoidable unfairness.

I sincerely hope devs would not use your argument for their decisions on exclusive content. It would shed a very bad light no them.

Take the recent AMA on reddit for example. Question 3 from top atm "Without giving any spoilers - who is everyone's favorite characters and why? " First answer: "John: Tryggvi - because he is nuts and has an awesome necklace worthy of a parade." Every release day review can quote this with the addition "you will never be able to get to know this guy :P".



My argument wasnt really to have a reason why they did it, it was more of a philosophy discussion on time constraints and why this endless discussion on preorder exclusiveness is a bit empty.

You say my example for the first players is unavoidable unfairness. That isnt really correct. It is true that there will always be some players that will need to serve that role. But really many people wait out the first month of the gameplay to avoid that unfairness thus it is clearly avoidable. And they often do get the game on lowered price as well. So those individuals that buy the game after release will probably play a better game than those that preorder it (and play it immediately) and will know if the game is a sound investment or not. Preordering and playing games immediately is clearly avoidable. So in that sense that is unfair and avoidable. But in the other sense some individuals must play the game in an inferior state. That is just how the current game environment works.

+ I am against these in game exclusives for a completely different reason. Because I knew that this practice is frowned upon and in most discussion about games that have done similar things (both preorder and kickstarter exclusives) negativity surrounds these practices. And that is something that should have been avoided.

Yellow
01-12-2014, 11:30 PM
"coming soon to GoG", that was a month ago...., why is then GoG.com still not avanible with less than 2 days left? Will it not be possible to pre-order the game from there? If that is the case, those who buy GoG.com version will then not get the pre-order exclusive "bonus" ?

Slimsy Platypus
01-12-2014, 11:58 PM
"coming soon to GoG", that was a month ago...., why is then GoG.com still not avanible with less than 2 days left? Will it not be possible to pre-order the game from there? If that is the case, those who buy GoG.com version will then not get the pre-order exclusive "bonus" ?

From the Reddit AMA the other day - Stoic Studio: "We had some delays with GoG. We're still working it out." I'd imagine if they knew exactly when it would be sorted out they would have told us.

Yellow
01-13-2014, 12:02 AM
From the Reddit AMA the other day - Stoic Studio: "We had some delays with GoG. We're still working it out." I'd imagine if they knew exactly when it would be sorted out they would have told us.

ty for the answer, however, with only 1 day and 4 hours left for pre-orders it looks rather grim for those who wanted to get the FULL game from GoG.com....

BlakJak70
01-25-2014, 09:51 PM
Disappointed that it's still not on GOG and disappointed in myself that I didn't find out about this before it was released on Steam. I try to get all the DLC I can for a game and knowing I can not eventually get the pre order dlc irks me to no end. So many other developers make these things available later on.

I know it's my problem but things like that turn me away from games. I'm sure there are other gamers that feel the same about it. I know it's something small and trivial but it still bothers me when developers and publishers make portions of their game unavailable to portions of their potential customer base.

netnazgul
01-26-2014, 03:26 AM
if only it wasn't called DLC but "Backers' and pre-order special" or something...

Aleonymous
03-12-2014, 04:22 AM
...pre-order exclusive in-game content...

...No more! If you are up to a tiny bit of modding -- http://stoicstudio.com/forum/showthread.php?3160-Unlock-Tryggvi Enjoy ;)

Yellow
04-02-2018, 03:22 AM
...No more! If you are up to a tiny bit of modding -- http://stoicstudio.com/forum/showthread.php?3160-Unlock-Tryggvi Enjoy ;)

Thanks a lot!

It should have been done officially tho!