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Kletian999
01-17-2014, 12:37 PM
I'm surprised that the fervor for knowing what classes are to come into factions hasn't gotten on this earlier. We now have a Grudgewielder, a Male Mender, the Hunter (overpowered), Spearman, the Sharpshooter, and the warden in Saga. Naturally it's possible (looking at you Rook) that some elements won't carry into the multiplayer, but it's worth discussing!

Male Mender:
Passive(still active): Mend- repairs armor up to half of current will, range 5?
Active: Lightning bolt- Deals 2+will Str damage to main target ignoring armor, chains to units diagonally adjacent for additional damage.

Grudgewielder: didn't take him

Warden:
Passive: walk through allies
Active: grant 2+ willpower to another unit, range 5?

Spearman:
Passive:
Active: knockback 1 space and cause a str bleed effect.

Sharpshooter:
Active: Thread the needle: 1 str/arm damage to all units in a 5 square line.

Lochlan
01-17-2014, 01:35 PM
Mend has unlimited range, the lightning ability has a range of 6.

The Grudgewielder has the same ability as the large shield-carrying dredge, except the Grudgewielder damages health instead of armor.

I believe the Warden's ability also has unlimited range, but I don't recall for sure since I used it maybe twice.

The Speaman's passive restores 1 Willpower to him and any adjacent allies when he kills an enemy. Also it should be mentioned that the active does normal strength damage as well.

And by Sharpshooter, I assume you meant Eagle Eye. :p Also the ability does normal strength damage (plus puncture bonus), not just 1.

Rensei
01-17-2014, 01:57 PM
Spearmaster:
- Embolden (passive) - each kill adds 1 wp to adjacent allies.
- Impale (active) - str damage and knock the enemy back 1/2/3 tiles. Applies bleed effect, doing 1 str damage for each tile travelled (even when pushed, taunted etc.).

Hunter:
- Light step (passive) - travel through allies.
- Mark prey (active) - 1/2/3 armour break and all allies close enough to attack, do str damage (they can miss).

Landsman:
- Light step (passive) - travel through allies.

Eagle Eye:
- Puncture (passive) - 1 bonus str per 2 target armour missing if not moved.
- Thread the needle (active) - shoots in a straight line, all characters on that line up to 5 tiles away (even friendly!) suffer standard str dmg + puncture, if not moved + 1/2/3 armour break.
note: 13 (10+item) str Alette with supporting shieldmaster take down enemies 2-4 at a time easily.

Mender:
- Arc lightning (active) - 6 range, 2/3/4 damage, that then jumps to any characters standing diagonally (even friendly!) each jump does 1 more dmg.
- Mend (active) - 6 range, restores [casters current willpower/2] friendly targets armour +0/1/2. Current wp counts AFTER the spell is payed for.

Aleonymous
01-17-2014, 03:17 PM
Three questions:

(1) Hunter's Mark Prey -- Do we know in which order the in-range units attack? It's important if you're aiming to get kills on specific units.
(2) Hunter's Mark Prey -- If the prey is a SB and takes 3 melee hits but dies on the 2nd hit... Does the 3rd melee attacker take RtF?
(3) Thread the Needle -- If the EE has an adjacent enemy and targets one further afar, does the adjacent one also take damage?

Rensei
01-17-2014, 04:45 PM
1) the kill goes to the Hunter
2) the dredge don't have SB, we won't have Hunter in Factions any time soon :P
3) he/she does

Lochlan
01-17-2014, 06:10 PM
(2) Hunter's Mark Prey -- If the prey is a SB and takes 3 melee hits but dies on the 2nd hit... Does the 3rd melee attacker take RtF?

Rensei is correct that Dredge don't have RtF, but from the fight against Varl on the bridge, I'm pretty sure all attackers take RtF. Not 100% on that, but I seem to recall that being the case.

Aleonymous
01-18-2014, 04:52 AM
Thanks! The answer to my (1) was kinda unexpected though :)

Some more:

(4) Mender's Arc Lightning -- If the target unit has two diagonally-adjacent units, which will the arc jump to?
(5) Grudgewielder's Guts -- Has anyone confirmed if there is a "pass-thru-unit" functionality, as in the Battering Ram? Also (netz pointed this out), in the description is says that GW does "normal damage" plus knockback, but he always seems to do 1STR...

Also, I think it's only proper to record the Dredge abilities too ;)

Rensei
01-18-2014, 05:44 AM
4) it jumps to both (or even more) adjacent targets, hitting both for +1dmg, however it is better to set up a nice chain. The bolt jumps even if one of the units is killed by it.

5) this and shield dredge ability pushes them only set amount of tiles or untill collision - doesn't push through. This often bites the dredge in the ass since they end up doing 1dmg to You and 4dmg to friendlies.

EDIT : I think it does normal str dmg to the target im front of the guy.

Aleonymous
01-18-2014, 08:20 AM
4) it jumps to both (or even more) adjacent targets, hitting both for +1dmg, however it is better to set up a nice chain. The bolt jumps even if one of the units is killed by it.

Interesting... So, there is potential for branching arcs to re-unite, completely frying an enemy?



F
E E
C D C
B B
A

In the above example, "A" is the target unit, the spark goes "upwards" and the units are arranged in a nice diamond/rhomb formation. So, assuming a rank-1 arc, the damage sustained is:

A : 2
B : 3=(A+1)
C : 4=(A+2)
D : 8=(A+2)*2 -- we got two arcs here, that split in two (each)
E : 20=(A+3)*4 -- we got four arcs here
F : 24=(A+4)*4

Rensei
01-18-2014, 02:07 PM
This is so interresting I am tempted to run a test fight vs weak melee enemies on easy and position them using taunts pushes and whatnot, though I am affraid it doesn't work like that (path is calculated before it launches, and setup so that each target is hit only once. I recall having 5 enemies hit and the spell zig-zaging between them.

Lochlan
01-19-2014, 04:09 PM
In the above example, "A" is the target unit, the spark goes "upwards" and the units are arranged in a nice diamond/rhomb formation. So, assuming a rank-1 arc, the damage sustained is:

A : 2
B : 3=(A+1)
C : 4=(A+2)
D : 8=(A+2)*2 -- we got two arcs here, that split in two (each)
E : 20=(A+3)*4 -- we got four arcs here
F : 24=(A+4)*4


Pretty sure each target is only hit once, like Rensei said. So it would (probably) be:

A : 2
B : 3=(A+1)
C : 4=(A+2)
D : 4=(A+2)
E : 5=(A+3)
F : 6=(A+4)

Aleonymous
01-19-2014, 05:04 PM
path is calculated before it launches, and setup so that each target is hit only once.

Pretty sure each target is only hit once, like Rensei said.

OK, I believe this makes it much simpler to implement and it doesn't defy the laws of electromagnetics (as much) :D

Brackstone
01-19-2014, 10:57 PM
How do people think these new units are going to work in factions?

I was thinking about the spearman recently, and how powerful his ability was (especially against slingers). When combined with a strongarm, or even better a grudgewielder, he can do quite a bit of guaranteed strength damage while completely ignoring a target's armor.

That said, maybe that isn't as much of an issue as implementing hunters or menders, and it's certainly a more mundane topic than all this crazy lightning strategy, but it's still something I've been thinking about.

Also, I don't see any reason we couldn't get some of the dredge units in Factions as well. They'd need some changes of course, but they had some pretty cool abilities that could be a lot of fun to use. I doubt the ability that summons another unit could ever work though.

Aleonymous
01-20-2014, 04:05 AM
The Spearmaster seems like the most likely to come in Factions "as is", along with the Warden, the Eagle-Eye & Grudgewielder. I wouldn't tweak them (except for the max stats, of course) at the moment.

The Mender & Hunter are way off balance... Only way to bring a Mender is if the opponent has got one too. Hunter needs a big tone-down too. Either reduce the bow-attack range (e.g. 3 or 4), or severely limit his max stats, or change the was his active-ability works.

The Dredge are fun, but they are kinda UP: they don't have well developed ability-sets and their passives are mostly negative (Splinter) or random (Run Off) making them bad for Factions. A lot of work is needed on them, if they're gonna rival human/Varl units on equal grounds (not just stat-buffed).

Kletian999
01-20-2014, 04:10 AM
I think Hunter could work if it only granted 1 attack, and maybe only worked on melee units. "Giving you a break and 1 extra strength attack" is on par with what tempest (2+ str attacks) or run through accomplishes, as long as puncture isn't involved.

Rensei
01-20-2014, 05:18 AM
The dredge have two major "abilities" that kill them, some others they can't use. Apart Bello, red slingers and the big str guy, they are beyond UP.

netnazgul
01-20-2014, 05:34 AM
The Spearmaster seems like the most likely to come in Factions "as is", along with the Warden, the Eagle-Eye & Grudgewielder. I wouldn't tweak them (except for the max stats, of course) at the moment.

The Mender & Hunter are way off balance... Only way to bring a Mender is if the opponent has got one too. Hunter needs a big tone-down too. Either reduce the bow-attack range (e.g. 3 or 4), or severely limit his max stats, or change the was his active-ability works.

Well Warden could need some range nerfing maybe, as for now it seems to be a free WP generator. Although due to the fact he is not really a useful unit overall (poor stats), probably he is good as is.
Mender has absolutely no way into Factions currently, just that :p
Hunter is way imba due to his active ability, and there is no real way to change it. Even if he would have his stats reduced he could be used as one-time-hitter to bring down a powerful enemy (have hunter in the back, break with raiders/archers, bring hunter and Mark Prey -> raiders/archers all hit strength).

Bastilean
01-20-2014, 02:41 PM
Has anyone gotten the two handed varl Raven leader to join their party?http://s24.postimage.org/c4dfbi4h1/chars_new.jpg He is shown on the right.

loveboof
01-20-2014, 03:26 PM
The Mender & Hunter are way off balance... Only way to bring a Mender is if the opponent has got one too.

Personally, I've done way more damage to my own units than the enemy with the Mender! lol... Fun unit to play with though.

(Would be nice imo if the pathway of the lightning arc was highlighted in the same way as the Warhawk's Tempest ability...)

Lochlan
01-20-2014, 05:37 PM
Has anyone gotten the two handed varl Raven leader to join their party?

Pretty sure that's not possible. I am assuming he will become a party member in Part 2 (assuming again that there will be a Part 2).

Brackstone
01-20-2014, 06:52 PM
I figured I might as well add more specific dredge info to the list.

Grunt
Splinter: adjacent dredge also take damage when hit for 3 arm dam or more

Stoneguard
Splinter
Kindle: A shield slam causes knockback to all adjacent units, doing armor damage. (4 spaces)

Scourge
Splinter
Tremble: The scourge uses his weapon to summon an ally to the battlefield

Blind Slinger
Back off: After being attacked, the slinger moves away from the attacker
Sunstrike: A blinding explosion that prevents the target from using exertion for 1 turn

Flame Slinger
Back off
Shatterstone: Two bombs are thrown, each causing 2 str/arm damage to an area on the next turn

Stonesinger (I don't remember the exact ability names)
Passive: Enemies that touch it (or attack it in melee range?) take one damage every turn afterward.
Active: The stonesinger does his tuning fork thing which once completed causes all allies to lose 2 armour and gain 3 strength. (not certain about the values, but I do believe the strength does go over the normal maximum value)

The issue is that the scourge, grunt and stonesinger would all need some work. I don't necessarily think they need to lose the splinter passive, since it's not really too crippling, but they'd need some kind of extra kick.

The two advanced slingers seem alright except for their passive, and i suppose the blind slinger could be more useful if his ability prevented all willpower usage on the target for one turn, but that's just an idea. I'm not expecting any dredge units to be playable, but it's fun to think about anyway.

One cool thing to note about the splinter passive though, is that if you shield bash a dredge and he stops adjacent to another dredge, the passive activates even though the attack didn't happen while they were adjacent. Same thing with the Varl Warrior's passive if you give one the item that causes knockback on strength hits over 3.

Aleonymous
01-21-2014, 05:02 PM
Would be nice imo if the pathway of the lightning arc was highlighted in the same way as the Warhawk's Tempest ability...

That would be very helpful, indeed! +1

Zekram Bogg
01-21-2014, 08:09 PM
How do people think these new units are going to work in factions?

I was thinking about the spearman recently, and how powerful his ability was (especially against slingers). When combined with a strongarm, or even better a grudgewielder, he can do quite a bit of guaranteed strength damage while completely ignoring a target's armor.

That said, maybe that isn't as much of an issue as implementing hunters or menders, and it's certainly a more mundane topic than all this crazy lightning strategy, but it's still something I've been thinking about.

Also, I don't see any reason we couldn't get some of the dredge units in Factions as well. They'd need some changes of course, but they had some pretty cool abilities that could be a lot of fun to use. I doubt the ability that summons another unit could ever work though.

Hmm. This is a good question, and I think I might have an answer actually.

Basically, there are already spots on the class listing for each character class in factions that indicate a 4th upper class from the base class, yeah? Well, I think these are "hero" slots.

Look at the Grudgewielder (Ekkil) and Eagle Eye (Alette) in particular. They obviously belong to the Raider and Archer class "families" since they have the appropriate passives. However, their active abilities have all kinds of OP potential. The Grudgewielder can (at base level) do normal attack damage + 2 Str to theoretically 4, more commonly 2 or 3 units, and pushing them on top of this. The Eagle Eye does normal Str damage on up to 5 units in a line. Both of those types of attacks, have utter devastation potential if used correctly. Same thing with the Hunter's (Rook) Active against a single target.

These are pretty obviously Hero characters with super powerful active abilities befitting such hero characters. So what I figure is that this may mean that there will be, instead of simply new units added to Factions, an actual new battle type, where you field your team, but before your match starts, you pick one of them to be a hero unit. Or maybe by putting a hero unit on your team you only get paired against teams that also have a hero unit on theirs. The point is, "Heroic Battles" are sort of a new match type.

Of course, this means there needs to be a heroic unit for each base class type, and we've only seen two of 4 at the moment. While I'd guess the dual wielding Raven Varl guy is the Warrior Class' heroic unit, we'd still need a Varl Shieldbanger hero unit to complete the set of unit types currently in Factions before this could be brought over.

What's more interesting to me though, are the possibilities of new base unit types.

The Hunter and The Warden (I forget the name of the character) are both coming from a base unit type as they both have the same passive (Light Step)and share a lot of the same animations and concepts - Human Males, single weapon held in their hands, no shield, and a cape. From what we can tell the base unit is called "The Landsman" and is likely just sort of a peasant with an axe. Mostly what I wonder are what the other two variations of what the Landsman can become are going to be.

After that, we then have the Spearmaster, who seems like a version of the Shieldmaster, Raidmaster, Warmaster dichotomy for a theoretical Spearman base class. I'm betting we'll see base Spearmen as enemy units in the Part 2 of the SP campaign since it seems like that will take place at least in part at the human capitol, and Spearmen are pretty standard human soldiers and all. Of all the classes in the SP campaign not in Factions, the Spearmaster is easily the most already balanced and easily inserted into factions, the Impale ability is good, but not the most powerful ability in the world and would need to be used in conjunction with another team member (either the Grudgewielder or Strongarm) to really be good, and even then, I'm pretty sure the bleed only procs on movement made by the affected unit, not movement forced on the affected unit.

That said, there also would need to be two more advanced Spearman classes and possibly a heroic Spearman class before the Spearman line could be included into Factions. Considering their passive ability, Embolden, where they gain willpower for kills, I'm betting one of these classes will be the traditional Berserker. I mean, it sure seems odd to me that a game heavily based on Viking mythos wouldn't have a stated Berserker, right? And if there isn't a Berserker in the Spearman class line, I'd bet the Big Varl dual wielding Heroic Warrior is a the Berserker Heroic class.

Now, all of that said, it's totally possible that all of the seen "Heroic" classes could be nerfed to work as new class options in Factions. Here's how:

Hunter - Mark Prey only activates one team attacker per level. So level 1 you get one bonus attack from your side, level 3 gives you 3. It prefers melee over ranged, too, so if you have uninjured 3 archers in range and 2 weakened melee fighters and you use the level 2 version, then you get the two weakend fighters making their attacks instead of the archers.

Eagle Eye - Puncture does reduced damage and has increased miss chance for each successive enemy it passes through. Simple enough nerf that makes it situationally useful instead of situationally OP.

Grudgewielder - Guts is pretty simple too, remove the base attack damage, only do the static damage. It's the combo that's really devastating, potentially letting this character instantly kill 3-4 characters if they have weak armor and he has high Strength (though if he's surrounded by 4 enemies with another player behind the helm, it's really their own stupid fault for letting that scenario happen). If that's still too OP you could then have the push damage work like the Thrasher's randomly hitting either armor or Strength.

As for Dredge units being added to Factions, you'd need to give them a boost to their racial passive in addition to its detriment, and several would actually need abilities or replacements. For example, having the ability to summon in a new unit mid battle would be totally OP in MP. As they stand, the Dredge are very obviously SP only because they'd need a TON of work to not suck in/break the rules of MP.

Aleonymous
01-22-2014, 06:45 AM
Hunter - Mark Prey only activates one team attacker per level. So level 1 you get one bonus attack from your side, level 3 gives you 3. It prefers melee over ranged, too, so if you have uninjured 3 archers in range and 2 weakened melee fighters and you use the level 2 version, then you get the two weakened fighters making their attacks instead of the archers.

I like this as a startpoint for nerfing the Hunter, prioritizing melee over ranged. If multiple melee allies are engaged, the closest down (i.e. next) in initiative is prioritized. In this way, it will require more skill to setup a combo, and not just walk up with a big warrior, hit-hard, mark-prey, hit-hard again...

balnoisi
01-22-2014, 08:38 AM
does anyone know what are these "C" guys ? they also appear in another scene in the cliffs

http://s2.postimg.org/hj7n2xe0p/tbs_dredge_flash_capt.jpg

plus there are a couple others ( not in this image ) that look like "popes".

Aleonymous
01-22-2014, 09:26 AM
does anyone know what are these "C" guys ? they also appear in another scene in the cliffs
plus there are a couple others ( not in this image ) that look like "popes".

bal, how did you manage to make the art of the game seem to distorted and frustrating to look upon? :D

Perhaps some sort of Dredge "Elders"? Also, they are way too slim... Perhaps females too?

balnoisi
01-22-2014, 11:23 AM
did i went too far in the "don't spoil the game art" direction ?

anyway, i am not sure about the female dredge slingers since the ones you fight dont wear skirts, as opposed to those seen in the backgrounds. also those backpacks they carry, do they hold babies inside ? if so, all babies are of the same size, not smaller / bigger.

the final confrontation does not leave much for imagination about the origin of Dredge. while for most of the gameplay you wonder if they are animated stone, or metallic beings ( myself i saw them as golems ). but then you can see that "organic" head with humanlike features.

Lochlan
01-22-2014, 05:54 PM
Look at the Grudgewielder (Ekkil) and Eagle Eye (Alette) in particular. They obviously belong to the Raider and Archer class "families" since they have the appropriate passives. However, their active abilities have all kinds of OP potential. The Grudgewielder can (at base level) do normal attack damage + 2 Str to theoretically 4, more commonly 2 or 3 units, and pushing them on top of this. The Eagle Eye does normal Str damage on up to 5 units in a line. Both of those types of attacks, have utter devastation potential if used correctly. Same thing with the Hunter's (Rook) Active against a single target.

These are pretty obviously Hero characters with super powerful active abilities befitting such hero characters. So what I figure is that this may mean that there will be, instead of simply new units added to Factions, an actual new battle type, where you field your team, but before your match starts, you pick one of them to be a hero unit. Or maybe by putting a hero unit on your team you only get paired against teams that also have a hero unit on theirs. The point is, "Heroic Battles" are sort of a new match type.

Of course, this means there needs to be a heroic unit for each base class type, and we've only seen two of 4 at the moment. While I'd guess the dual wielding Raven Varl guy is the Warrior Class' heroic unit, we'd still need a Varl Shieldbanger hero unit to complete the set of unit types currently in Factions before this could be brought over.

What's more interesting to me though, are the possibilities of new base unit types.

The Hunter and The Warden (I forget the name of the character) are both coming from a base unit type as they both have the same passive (Light Step)and share a lot of the same animations and concepts - Human Males, single weapon held in their hands, no shield, and a cape. From what we can tell the base unit is called "The Landsman" and is likely just sort of a peasant with an axe. Mostly what I wonder are what the other two variations of what the Landsman can become are going to be.

After that, we then have the Spearmaster, who seems like a version of the Shieldmaster, Raidmaster, Warmaster dichotomy for a theoretical Spearman base class. I'm betting we'll see base Spearmen as enemy units in the Part 2 of the SP campaign since it seems like that will take place at least in part at the human capitol, and Spearmen are pretty standard human soldiers and all. Of all the classes in the SP campaign not in Factions, the Spearmaster is easily the most already balanced and easily inserted into factions, the Impale ability is good, but not the most powerful ability in the world and would need to be used in conjunction with another team member (either the Grudgewielder or Strongarm) to really be good, and even then, I'm pretty sure the bleed only procs on movement made by the affected unit, not movement forced on the affected unit.

That said, there also would need to be two more advanced Spearman classes and possibly a heroic Spearman class before the Spearman line could be included into Factions. Considering their passive ability, Embolden, where they gain willpower for kills, I'm betting one of these classes will be the traditional Berserker. I mean, it sure seems odd to me that a game heavily based on Viking mythos wouldn't have a stated Berserker, right? And if there isn't a Berserker in the Spearman class line, I'd bet the Big Varl dual wielding Heroic Warrior is a the Berserker Heroic class.

Now, all of that said, it's totally possible that all of the seen "Heroic" classes could be nerfed to work as new class options in Factions. Here's how:

Hunter - Mark Prey only activates one team attacker per level. So level 1 you get one bonus attack from your side, level 3 gives you 3. It prefers melee over ranged, too, so if you have uninjured 3 archers in range and 2 weakened melee fighters and you use the level 2 version, then you get the two weakend fighters making their attacks instead of the archers.

Eagle Eye - Puncture does reduced damage and has increased miss chance for each successive enemy it passes through. Simple enough nerf that makes it situationally useful instead of situationally OP.

Grudgewielder - Guts is pretty simple too, remove the base attack damage, only do the static damage. It's the combo that's really devastating, potentially letting this character instantly kill 3-4 characters if they have weak armor and he has high Strength (though if he's surrounded by 4 enemies with another player behind the helm, it's really their own stupid fault for letting that scenario happen). If that's still too OP you could then have the push damage work like the Thrasher's randomly hitting either armor or Strength.

Whew, a lot of stuff here.

First off, the bear-skin-wearing Varl is almost definitely a Berserker, which will be a new Varl base-class. The Wardog is the upcoming Warrior class (Hakon was supposed to be a Wardog, apparently).

Next, I don't feel Guts is OP at all. For one, it does not do base strength to all targets hit. It is supposed to do base strength only to the unit targeted, but from what I've seen it doesn't even do that. Even if it did do what it is supposed to, I still would not consider it more OP than, say, a Warhawk's Tempest (especially since Guts will hit an adjacent friendly no matter what).

Thread the Needle is definitely more OP than Guts, but I'm still not sure I would consider it actually "over powered." If you put yourself in a position where an Eagle Eye can hit five of your guys in one shot, that's your own fault.

Mark Prey is definitely the most OP out of these, but I'm still not sure it needs a nerf. In single player I rarely found I needed to use it (often Rook could just kill the thing he could have marked), and I only really used it against absurdly big Dredge (like the 16/23 guys).

Also, Impale triggers off of forced movement from things like Grudgewielders and Strongarms (at least, it's supposed toŚnever tested it myself).

Zekram Bogg
01-23-2014, 04:36 AM
Whew, a lot of stuff here.

First off, the bear-skin-wearing Varl is almost definitely a Berserker, which will be a new Varl base-class. The Wardog is the upcoming Warrior class (Hakon was supposed to be a Wardog, apparently).

Next, I don't feel Guts is OP at all. For one, it does not do base strength to all targets hit. It is supposed to do base strength only to the unit targeted, but from what I've seen it doesn't even do that. Even if it did do what it is supposed to, I still would not consider it more OP than, say, a Warhawk's Tempest (especially since Guts will hit an adjacent friendly no matter what).

Thread the Needle is definitely more OP than Guts, but I'm still not sure I would consider it actually "over powered." If you put yourself in a position where an Eagle Eye can hit five of your guys in one shot, that's your own fault.

Mark Prey is definitely the most OP out of these, but I'm still not sure it needs a nerf. In single player I rarely found I needed to use it (often Rook could just kill the thing he could have marked), and I only really used it against absurdly big Dredge (like the 16/23 guys).

Also, Impale triggers off of forced movement from things like Grudgewielders and Strongarms (at least, it's supposed to—never tested it myself).

Wardog? That sounds fun. I wonder what the active ability is supposed to be? We should start speculating like mad.

As for balance on the hero classes . . . I'd tend to agree that they don't need much nerfing really. I was just tossing that out there because everyone else seemed to think they did really.

Anyway, it occurs to me that aside from the Grudgewielder, Eagle Eye, and probably this "Dog of War" getting into Factions next, there's a good chance of introducing a whole new class family. Considering we've seen 1 of the upgraded Spearman classes, and two of the upgraded Landsmen, I say we should start speculating/suggesting/wildly mass guessing about what the three remaining classes will be.

First, it seems to me that the base Landsman passive could be a bit underpowered all things told. I mean, don't get me wrong, moving through your own team's squares is handy, but just not enough. Considering its name - Light Step - I was thinking one bonus the passive could also have would be that Landsmen wouldn't take damage or receive negative effects from ground effects like coals or the siege archer's burning oil patches. This would especially be useful if new maps were added with new terrain features, like a swamp map where bog squares, or maybe mud, would cost double movement to get through. Or if there was a map with really icy patches that cause a "slide" effect when passing through them.

Next, the last Landsman upper class. I'm thinking Assassin.

I mean, it just seems to fit the "tricky" nature of the class. Since it would be an assassin, I'm guessing some kind of strength Damage over time poison would be the active ability, probably with a name like "Poisoned Blade". The basic concept would also be simple, with the level of the ability affecting the number of turns the poison lasts. Combined with the Light step ability, an Assassin could pop through a big unit like a Varl and poison a theoretically "safe" character, dooming them.

As for the spearmen, they're a bit trickier.

The one I want is a Pikeman. The active ability would be "Ready Pike" and it'd be the Pikeman readying the long spear in a position pointing forward so that any enemy unit that passes through the a three squares directly in front of the Pikeman (with the level of the ability adding more cardinal directions) would receive a Strength attack by the Pikeman, the basic idea being that the Pikeman would be a more "defensive" Spearman as opposed to the Spearmaster, and that they'd be used for zone control, especially if you bring more than one.

Of course, Pikes weren't really so much of a Viking thing, so it may not fit the setting exactly, which could be the biggest thing hurting this idea from coming to fruition. After that, there's still a Spearman class left . . . which I'm drawing a blank on. Maybe something with a shorter spear, or a Javelin?

Anyone got any ideas on what other spearmen/the last landsman could be?

squegeeboo
01-23-2014, 12:52 PM
Isn't the spearman the only melee who can attack on his diagonal also?

Lochlan
01-24-2014, 04:26 AM
First, it seems to me that the base Landsman passive could be a bit underpowered all things told. I mean, don't get me wrong, moving through your own team's squares is handy, but just not enough. Considering its name - Light Step - I was thinking one bonus the passive could also have would be that Landsmen wouldn't take damage or receive negative effects from ground effects like coals or the siege archer's burning oil patches. This would especially be useful if new maps were added with new terrain features, like a swamp map where bog squares, or maybe mud, would cost double movement to get through. Or if there was a map with really icy patches that cause a "slide" effect when passing through them.

Cool idea! You could even extend it to making them immune to a Skystriker's trapped tiles and/or a Fire Slinger's bombs.

As for possible new Landsman and Spearman classes...hmm...

Since the two Landsmen are very much support classes, I imagine future additions would be as well. What about a class with the ability to mess with your opponents activation order? Sort of like a reverse Warleader. Or perhaps a class with a different sort of Mark Prey, where until the Landsman activates again, the marked target takes +1/2/3 damage (armor and/or strength) from all sources. I could also see an ability like that on a Spearman class. Another ability I would like to see is a variation on one of the Dredge Slingers' (can't remember what the specific one is called) abilities—I'm thinking Strength damage (minimum 1), target cannot use exertion during their next activation, and loses 0/1/2 Willpower. I also think a Spearman who carries a bunch of extra spears with him and can make ranged attacks with them as his ability could be pretty cool.

LoliSauce
01-25-2014, 08:54 PM
Stonesinger (I don't remember the exact ability names)
Passive: Enemies that touch it (or attack it in melee range?) take one damage every turn afterward.
Active: The stonesinger does his tuning fork thing which once completed causes all allies to lose 2 armour and gain 3 strength. (not certain about the values, but I do believe the strength does go over the normal maximum value)

Let me correct this.

Stonesinger
Passive: Any enemy hit by the Stonesinger's melee attack will take 1 strength damage at the start of its turn (I'm assuming this repeats until the battle's completion).
Active 1: Charges until the Stonesinger's next turn, then reduces armor and raises strength of all other allies on the field. Can't remember specific values, but I think it's 2/2.
Active 2: Charges until the Stonesinger's next turn, then causes an explosion on all other allies, each explosion dealing strength damage to all adjacent enemies equal to the amount of armor the ally is missing.

It's worth noting that both charge animations are exactly the same, where he holds both weapons above his head.


Also it should be noted that the sunslinger's ability prevents willpower use for both movement and powering attacks. I don't remember offhand if it prevents ability use, though I imagine it should.

I also like the idea of Mark Prey just allowing 1/2/3 allies to hit marked target based on level, though I feel that it should prioritize the highest strength ally to hit first. It requires some good breaking beforehand to make it worthwhile as meter use, and it requires a melee hit for a unit that excels as ranged attacker otherwise.


Edit:
On character abilities...hmm, what's some fun stuff we could throw in.

-Varl Berserker ability: Roars ferociously and forces any enemies within X panel area in front of him to move out of the way. A sort of 'parting the red sea' effect, so to speak, to break formations. Higher rank could affect longer range path in front of him, like r1-adjacent/r2-three panel/r3-five panel distance forward.

-Spearman ability: Goes into an alert stance and provides supporting strength attacks for any melee hits adjacent allies make until his next turn. (Maybe attacks resolve at strength-x based on level)

-Landsman ability: Hamstrings the enemy with a well placed melee hit that reduces enemy movement by 1/2/3 with rank.

-Mender ability: Weaken the stability of an enemy's armor so that it fractures inward at the next impact, damaging their strength in relation to the amount of armor lost in the next attack received and rank. (if they can weave things together, they should be able to unmake them too, right?)

And I think someone had brought up a cool ability idea in one of slimsy's threads on yet-unreleased classes about the wardog and its headbutt animation we've all seen. Something like, he headbutts and it stuns for a bit, pushing them back a few actions in turn order. Reverse war leader shenanigans, similar to what was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Also I like the idea of an ability that prevents people from moving within a specific zone of control or else they take an automatic attack. It might be a little too similar in concept to the skystriker's rain, but it puts the melee warrior at risk himself of being focused as a result, or just pushed out of the way somehow. I feel like it would work well with a big defensive unit like a shieldbanger, but I can't deny it does fit damn well as an entrenched pikeman concept.

Aleonymous
01-26-2014, 04:58 AM
Stonesinger / Active 2: Charges until the Stonesinger's next turn, then causes an explosion on all other allies, each explosion dealing strength damage to all adjacent enemies equal to the amount of armor the ally is missing. It's worth noting that both charge animations are exactly the same, where he holds both weapons above his head.

That seems pretty devastating :( Fortunately, I've faced Stonesingers like 6-7 times, but they still haven't used that on me.


Stonesinger / actives -- It's worth noting that both charge animations are exactly the same, where he holds both weapons above his head.

Yes, this is troublesome. I'd like to see distinct animations, or at least some different "buff/charging" icon on the Stonesinger's portraits in turn-queue, to know what's coming.


Also it should be noted that the sunslinger's ability prevents willpower use for both movement and powering attacks. I don't remember offhand if it prevents ability use, though I imagine it should.

No, it doesn't hinder you from using ability, of any rank whatsoever. Completely blocking use of WP & abilities would be kinda harsh...


Spearman ability: Goes into an alert stance...
Also I like the idea of an ability that prevents people from moving within a specific zone of control or else they take an automatic attack ... I feel like it would work well with a big defensive unit like a shieldbanger, but I can't deny it does fit damn well as an entrenched pikeman concept.


This gave me another interesting idea about this "pikeman" spearman active: He plucks the butt of his spear in the ground and waits for incoming melee enemies. Any enemy walking into a specific 2-tile range from the pikeman, gets stopped and receives an STR-attack. This "ward" is secretely selected and placed on four tiles, the ones forming either the "+" or "x" pattern from the spearman's tile (so, varl are effectively blocked-out, but not raiders). This adds a little RoA-like mind-guessing to the ability. Higher-ranks could also add 1AB/2AB to the attack (before --like BB's RT-- or along with the STR-attack). Obviously, the STR-damage could also be fixed, like the SnB. Check the code below for the Spearman location (S) and the cross- (+) and X-guard (x) placed wards.



Cross-guard | X-guard
-------------------------------
. . + . . | . . . . .
. . . . . | . x . x .
+ . S . + | . . S . .
. . . . . | . x . x .
. . + . . | . . . . .


EDIT -- Looking at these pikaman wards, maybe the simpler version of wards placed on the four tiles adjacent (1-tile range) to the Spearman could also be available.

Daniel M. Kane
01-27-2014, 08:54 PM
The Grudgewielder can (at base level) do normal attack damage + 2 Str to theoretically 4, more commonly 2 or 3 units, and pushing them on top of this.Contrary to the description, the grudgewielder's special does only 1 damage + 1 per square pushed. Also, it's bugged and doesn't count as a "kill" for the grudgewielder (unless that was fixed since I last looked), making it tricky to level Ekkill since his most useful ability never raises his kill count.


Let me correct this.

Stonesinger
Passive: Any enemy hit by the Stonesinger's melee attack will take 1 strength damage at the start of its turn (I'm assuming this repeats until the battle's completion).
Active 1: Charges until the Stonesinger's next turn, then reduces armor and raises strength of all other allies on the field. Can't remember specific values, but I think it's 2/2.
Active 2: Charges until the Stonesinger's next turn, then causes an explosion on all other allies, each explosion dealing strength damage to all adjacent enemies equal to the amount of armor the ally is missing.
I'm pretty sure Active 2 blows up one weakened ally, killing the dredge and dealing [max armor - current armor] to adjacent enemies.


Also it should be noted that the sunslinger's ability prevents willpower use for both movement and powering attacks. I don't remember offhand if it prevents ability use, though I imagine it should. It absolutely does not affect ability use.

Daniel M. Kane
01-27-2014, 08:57 PM
Also, Impale triggers off of forced movement from things like Grudgewielders and Strongarms (at least, it's supposed to—never tested it myself).
It totally does. I killed a lot of colossi by impaling them with Tryggvi, knocking 'em around with Ekkill, then punting them with Iver. Also note that dredge slingers always take three steps away when struck, meaning 3 immediate bleed damage when impaled.

Impale is slightly funky in its resolution order:

1) 100% accuracy attack
2) move target to (Impale rank) spaces away
3) inflict bleed effect
4) trigger any damage-reaction effects

Weird example involving Ludin equipped with a knockback item, a dredge slinger, and five empty spaces behind the dredge slinger:
1) Ludin attacks the slinger with Impale (rank 1), dealing 4 damage. Slinger is knocked back 4 squares.
2) Slinger slides 3 squares back towards Ludin.
3) Slinger is afflicted with bleed.
4) Slinger retreats three squares, taking 1 damage per move.

If Ekkill then knocks the Slinger two squares, we also get:
5) Slinger takes 1 damage. (Ekkill)
6) Slinger moves one square.
7) Slinger takes 1 damage (Ludin?)
8) Slinger takes 1 damage (Ekkill?)
9) Slinger moves 1 square.
10) Slinger takes 1 damage (Ludin?)
11) Slinger takes 1 damage (Ekkill?)

Well, the slinger probably died by step 10, but you get the idea.

angelcatano
01-30-2014, 04:39 AM
Well, how about Menders having several Classes?

Eyvind is the aggressive/attack class (Warmender!), and he mentions there being Healers (who could actually heal Str, as well as Armour) and Builders (maybe they can build destructable obstacles?)

GreenDread
01-30-2014, 05:41 PM
At some point, Stoic said, they would'nt put "healing" in a sense of plain strength regeneration in, because it would make battles just tedious. So, if anything, it might be a temporary boost or some points of buffer strength.

Pretty sure, there will be menders who can create obstacles. Seems simple enough and very useful.

Generally, I expect some big nerfs towards Grudgewielder, Hunter and Eagle Eye (which is basically a ranged Warhawk with Puncture). (Or that hero system,which would be interesting as well.) Point is, in Factions you could pull more than one of these classes.

Aleonymous
01-30-2014, 07:08 PM
At some point, Stoic said, they would'nt put "healing" in a sense of plain strength regeneration in, because it would make battles just tedious.

That sounds true, but it could at least be tested before discarded... Only known form of "in-battle healing" is that Stonesinger ability that reduces ARM in favor of a STR boost (permanent). And, of course, Bellower's Indomitability :)


Pretty sure, there will be menders who can create obstacles. Seems simple enough and very useful.

I like that! I've even proposed such a class once, a while ago, called Earthweaver (male mender).


Generally, I expect some big nerfs towards Grudgewielder, Hunter and Eagle Eye

I think GW and EE are viable as they are. I'd test them "as is", and then tweak them. EE's Thread-the-Needle is too positional to be effectively exploited. GW's Guts could at least be made "targetted", i.e. knock-back a single unit, not all adjacent ones. But, HU is way too OP. Frankly, I think that just using a ranged-attack could be his Active ability! :D

hreinnbeno
01-31-2014, 07:38 AM
That sounds true, but it could at least be tested before discarded... Only known form of "in-battle healing" is that Stonesinger ability that reduces ARM in favor of a STR boost (permanent). And, of course, Bellower's Indomitability :)



I like that! I've even proposed such a class once, a while ago, called Earthweaver (male mender).



I think GW and EE are viable as they are. I'd test them "as is", and then tweak them. EE's Thread-the-Needle is too positional to be effectively exploited. GW's Guts could at least be made "targetted", i.e. knock-back a single unit, not all adjacent ones. But, HU is way too OP. Frankly, I think that just using a ranged-attack could be his Active ability! :D
Even though GWs ability to take many at the same time makes him OP it is as well the part that makes him UP. By making it targetted it would be alot easier to use. Its biggest problem is to get the chance to push more than one, when you do not push a friendly unit. If the targetting would be the way to rank the ability than (same as tempest) than that would be a possibility as well.

Aleonymous
01-31-2014, 09:04 AM
Even though GWs ability to take many at the same time makes him OP it is as well the part that makes him UP. By making it targetted it would be alot easier to use. Its biggest problem is to get the chance to push more than one, when you do not push a friendly unit. If the targetting would be the way to rank the ability than (same as tempest) than that would be a possibility as well.

That is true, about the OP/UP balance in Guts (GW ability). As with all "positional" abilities (Tempest, Sundering Impact, Run-Through, Slang and Burn), that might seem very potent at first, you eventually learn that it takes skill to set them up and execute them correctly. Especially against strong players.

I like the idea of Guts targeting depending on ability rank:

Rank-1 : Hits in all directions / X tiles knock-back
Rank-2 : Can deselect one direction (or one axis, i.e. two opposite directions)/ Y tiles knock-back
Rank-3 : Can deselect up to three directions / Z tiles knock-back

Wordplay
01-31-2014, 11:54 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I think the best way to balance the Hunter is to make him pay 1WP for every off turn unit he activates (and have to rank up, so capped at 3 off turn units). That way you need to burn a reasonable portion of the WP on a rank 3 Hunter to pull off a three man off-turn attack. You'll maybe be able to do that twice against an opponent, possibly three times with judicious horn use (unless they add Wardens to factions). The next thing I'd do, is maybe cut his maximum strength or armour (or even Willpower) back a bit, to keep him squishy. Bear in mind crippling in the early game is generally preferable to killing, and that killing creates turn advantage.

That makes the Hunter about the same power level as a Warhawk of equivalent rank, with the negative of being more likely to create turn advantage for the opponent, and only being able to target one unit at a time. The best the hunter's ability will ever do is kill or cripple one unit per turn, at the cost of a chunk of willpower, and significant effort/risk positioning. Sure, when the ability knocks that unit for 30 damage, it feels pretty devastating, but it's not necessarily OP. The Warhawk can kill or cripple three units for 3WP.

I hate the idea of making the ability prioritize melee. Successfully getting the synergy from the puncture and the mark prey feels like a smart move - one that you should be rewarded for. Besides, if you're attacking full armour units, and using the Hunter to hurry a high strength warrior, then that supposed nerf is immaterial.

The Hunter's very good for fighting the AI, but it's going to be less good against people, who can avoid bunching up, or leaving units unsupported, trap squares, and prioritize taking that squishy Hunter down before he can get anywhere near them. I predict Provoker and Skystriker will get a boost if the Hunter enters the meta-game.

In conclusion, I agree that the Hunter needs balancing for Factions, but I think that the difficulty of that has been a little overstated.