PDA

View Full Version : Rook's campaign balance



Cystennin
01-20-2014, 12:53 AM
On normal difficulty I haven't lost a single battle and always pursued the enemy when possible. However, while playing Rook I encountered major difficulties with provisions. It's gotten to the point where I am forced to ignore hero promotion and equippable items altogether and even then due to the steady flow of unfortunate roadside events I lack supplies. One possible reason I could think of is generally poor morale of my caravan, which might have affected the frequency of negative events. But morale is improved by resting, which requires supplies, which in turn I don't have. It's a vicious circle, that I'm inclined to view as a flaw in the game's mechanic. To make things even worse, I now realize that technically I didn't even need to spend so much renown on supplies, since the size of Rook's caravan barely matters from a tactical perspective. Clansmen in particular are a dead weight. It breaks my heart to see my people die out of starvation, but as far as logic is concerned it would happen in any case, so why the hell should I care?

Mind you, low availability of supplies is not even the problem here. Scarce resourses can be an excellent incentive for difficult management choices and an overall valuable gameplay feature. I'm usually all for it. But in TBS it looks like a "money sink" with no pay-off whatsoever. The only real choice I get to make is whether I'm sentimental enough to delay the inevitable. Not to mention that I got practically robbed of such RPG features like character progression and equipment. I believe there's a big problem with the "morale-supplies-rest" mechanic that needs adressing.

Of course, there's always a possibility that I'm just too bad at the game, or that I'm not privy to some essential information. So if you somehow avoided the issue, I'm eager to know how.

Korica
01-20-2014, 01:19 AM
Same thing happened to me. I'm going to see if it goes differently in my next play through, because I think part of the reason my caravan ended up starving is simply because I had too many Clansmen and allowed too many bad things to happen to my caravan. Stolen supplies, taking too long in certain places, etc.

illathid
01-20-2014, 01:50 AM
I feel like part of the problem is that when you return to Frostveller in chapter 4, I'm pretty sure any supplies Rook had before this point are gone regardless of how long chapter 3 took. This means you'll only want to buy the bare minimum of supplies prior to reaching Frostveller.

gunnyfreak
01-20-2014, 02:15 AM
to be fair, Hakon's caravan is two royal armies armed to the teeth, while Rook is taking his town and refugees to flee.

It's kinda interesting though, since from Rook's perspective, he could just ditch the clansmen and proceed to safety with Alette and maybe Iver, it's just he (or you) choosing to or not to do so

having said that, I do wish the caravan size matters to a greater degree though :P

Aleonymous
01-20-2014, 05:28 AM
Hello Cystennin. This issue (supplies/renown imbalance, especially in Chapter 6) has been reported multiple times. I think it is a priority issue for Stoic's first TBS update/patch.

Rensei
01-20-2014, 05:29 AM
I think the renown is not enteirely balanced - if You want to get just one good item and keep caravan relatively fed, there is slim chance of maxing the team out. The hardest achievement for me was Master Tactician not because the battle was hard, but because how hard it was to get 6x lvl 5.

Aleonymous
01-20-2014, 06:06 AM
The hardest achievement for me was Master Tactician not because the battle was hard, but because how hard it was to get 6x lvl 5.

That's why its called an achievement! :)

I think it's only possible in Hard-difficulty (more enemies ==> more kills & more renown) and if you do well enough to be able to handle both attack waves in Wars.

Cystennin
01-20-2014, 06:54 AM
... if You want to get just one good item and keep caravan relatively fed, there is slim chance of maxing the team out.
You see, I've been spending my renown exclusively on supplies for a while now (which makes battles progressively more difficult, but whatever... that's what tactics is for) and still some douche would nick my food and voila! - I'm back at start, except with no renown. I understand that Rook is supposed to be in dire straights. I would even like that pressure. The problem is, no matter what choice I make - result's the same. Kinda frustrating.

more enemies ==> more kills & more renown
BTW, can somebody confirm if the dudes summoned through dredge special ability count towards a higher renown score at the end of battle? If so, then I would hardly prevent them from casting. More cannon fodder.

Aleonymous
01-20-2014, 07:26 AM
BTW, can somebody confirm if the dudes summoned through dredge special ability count towards a higher renown score at the end of battle? If so, then I would hardly prevent them from casting. More cannon fodder.

I think they should count for the renown, but I am not sure if the do count...

Nortar
01-20-2014, 08:18 AM
Actually it would make sense if they don't give extra renown.
The ability to summon extra dredge is what summoner gets instead of extra armor/health or something else, so, in my opinion, summoned dredges should count as part of summoner's threat, not creatures of their own.

Mhorhe
01-20-2014, 09:12 AM
I think they should count for the renown, but I am not sure if the do count...

As far as I'm able to tell they don't count for renown. I had 2 identical fights in a row (in relation to number and types of Dredge) and in 1 of them I allowed the Scourge to summon an add. Same Renown won afterwards.

On topic - I too subscribe to the issue of caravan/supplies. Playing on Normal, while fighting (and winning) every possible fight (double fights in wars, the 3 fights on the bridge, never dodging a possible fight with either humans or Dredge) I still lost a few people to starvation (maybe 4-5 days of starvation all told) while foregoing any r4 or r5 promotions until Boersgard just so I could spend/have the necessary renown to spend on supplies.

Sigrholm does not help matters at all, what with the moronic 1 Renown = 1 Supply (and just 16 to boot), unknown numbers of days to wait for Juno and annoying events where no matter you do you lose supplies (I went after the thieves, beat them, and then returned to discover I had lost more than I had just won back to MOAR thieves..)

Infiltrator
01-20-2014, 12:29 PM
This is indeed ridiculous. I know I ended chapter 2 wich a bunch of surplus supplies, I start chapter 4, all that is gone, Im stuck with 3 days worth of supplies. Plus, the merchant there sells 1 supply for 1 renown. Ridiculous.

illathid
01-20-2014, 02:26 PM
Sigrholm does not help matters at all, what with the moronic 1 Renown = 1 Supply (and just 16 to boot), unknown numbers of days to wait for Juno and annoying events where no matter you do you lose supplies (I went after the thieves, beat them, and then returned to discover I had lost more than I had just won back to MOAR thieves..)

Actually that fight with the thieves is what let me make it to Boersgard without starving. I Bought just enough food in Sigrholm so I wouldn't starve on rest, and then let the thieves steal as much as they want as I could get a lot more supplies from the renown I got killing them.

Mhorhe
01-20-2014, 04:02 PM
Actually that fight with the thieves is what let me make it to Boersgard without starving. I Bought just enough food in Sigrholm so I wouldn't starve on rest, and then let the thieves steal as much as they want as I could get a lot more supplies from the renown I got killing them.

That's very odd for me. In my playthrough, Sigrholm's merchant had exactly 16 supply, at a premium 1 Renown per supply.

At that point my caravan had about 400 clansmen, ~100 fighters and ~60 Varl. 16 supply didn't mean much.. and more than 16 was stolen all told.

Nota bene - I don't object to the general grim darkness of it, it's clearly much of the game's charm. I just feel that you should be allowed to do good enough (as I said, every possible battle fought and won..) to avoid such things.

loveboof
01-20-2014, 04:07 PM
Do you think supplies should be bought with gold (for example) or bartered for items we don't want, and leave the 'renown' to be for certain special items, character level ups, and extra story choices/dialogue options?

As it is now, we walk into a town unknown and demand supplies based on how famous we are within our own clan... Possibly a bit silly and 'gamey'? :)

Surtr
01-20-2014, 04:30 PM
I never had enough renown to do all the things - keep the caravan supplied, promote heroes and buy items. I ended up trying to get enough supplies so as not to starve, but that failed miserably. Then I kinda gave up on the caravan and leveled up my heroes before the end.

Mhorhe
01-20-2014, 04:36 PM
Do you think supplies should be bought with gold (for example) or bartered for items we don't want, and leave the 'renown' to be for certain special items, character level ups, and extra story choices/dialogue options?

As it is now, we walk into a town unknown and demand supplies based on how famous we are within our own clan... Possibly a bit silly and 'gamey'? :)

That's a very good idea in point of fact.

I loved it in Boersgard when I was able to trade the drunken Warhawk's mead for food. We need more things like that, yeah!

Yellow
01-20-2014, 05:34 PM
Do you think supplies should be bought with gold (for example) or bartered for items we don't want, and leave the 'renown' to be for certain special items, character level ups, and extra story choices/dialogue options?

As it is now, we walk into a town unknown and demand supplies based on how famous we are within our own clan... Possibly a bit silly and 'gamey'? :)


That's a very good idea in point of fact.

I loved it in Boersgard when I was able to trade the drunken Warhawk's mead for food. We need more things like that, yeah!

I also agree that gold or at the very least something else should be taken into consideration too when "trading", the Sigbiorn's mead is a good example of it done right! Hell it would even go a long way if we could trade/sell some of the items we don't use/want for renown...

Wealth in this game world is already measured by gold(we are transporting a treasure caravan for half the game) so it would not be lore-breaking to include it as an actual currency, it would even add some more complexity to the game. I think however that it's use should be restricted to only some things, renown should still the primary currency.

Cystennin
01-21-2014, 12:19 AM
As it is now, we walk into a town unknown and demand supplies based on how famous we are within our own clan... Possibly a bit silly and 'gamey'?
I sort of dig the "unified currency" concept. It makes for some interesting choices. And to hell with realism. As for trading items for renown, sounds like a good idea to me.

I never had enough renown to do all the things ...
That's not the point. You are supposed to abandon some possibilities in favour of others. However,

I ended up trying to get enough supplies so as not to starve, but that failed miserably.
This!

Bjorn the coalstoker
08-21-2015, 01:49 PM
I believe there's a big problem with the "morale-supplies-rest" mechanic that needs adressing.

I know, it sounds silly to jump in a discussion closed one year ago, but if I can quote the only big NO of TBS game experience, it was to see what happened resting with no provisions and the lowest moral: people, having not provisions, were horribly dying, but because I was resting, moral was going mechanically up.
This kind of destroyed the poetry of the whole "exodus" plot, because I was recovering moral - de facto - killing my people while resting with no food.

Of course, if you consider moral just as "full bellies", then there was a lot of cannibalism going on and everyone was happy ;)

Little Horus
11-10-2015, 02:52 PM
One of the things that always intrigued me are the God stones, they should increase your morale you know?

For example there are instances when your caravan would take their sweet time there or even rest, yet your morale goes low - even tought the caravan seems happy to actually be there and do activities relating to the god stone. Shouldnt that be fixed or something? I mean the logical thing is that such activities would increase your caravan's morale.

Also clansmen do nothing except drain your supplies and cause you bad morale. You cannot send them to hunt nor collect food, they are basically leeches that make you feel bad. Whenever something happens.

A meter to indicate you how the morale is dropping or rising would definitely be great! Such mechanic is necesary IMO.

Aleonymous
11-20-2015, 04:02 AM
(a) Godstones -- Yes, the should increase the caravan morale, especially if the side-stories imply that! I think some of them give a small boost, if the appropriate choices are selected, but maybe it is not that noticeable.

(b) Clansmen -- Yes, Stoic have acknowledged that problem in TBS1 and said they would make them more meaningful in TBS2. For example, having many clansmen will allow them to generate Supplies (e.g. when in camp) and gain you more Renown from battles. Also, you will be able to convert some of them to Fighters, which will have a bigger impact on Wars.

(c) Morale -- You mean having a finer scale than the 5-grades displayed via the colored face in the top HUD? Here's some more info: http://bannersaga.gamepedia.com/Morale

StromMask
11-26-2015, 02:37 AM
So I just yesterday finally completed this game.

Had like 3 years ago gotten up to... Hmm what chapter was it... 3? Can't remember. Anyway, had quit it and taken a long break because I was in rather dire point and doing really badly. Started over tuesday and completed game on wednesday and I did pretty great.

Never lost a battle until late game(and didn't take that many retries to win), played on normal, didn't get high morale or 120 days achievement(sadly. I think I could have gotten 120 days if I hadn't rested to get higher morale for some of harder battles, I came really close to finishing game under 120 days..), but did get quarter master achievement. Game seems a lot easier than back when I played it first time, but I think its because I understand mechanics better now so I actually won battles while last time I kept losing and because of that suffered major losses(and got to situation where I had too many injured heroes in battle) xD

Anyway, dunno if patches have made something easier since I haven't played in three years, but I do have to say that its perfectly manageable to have none of clansmen die to supply loss and still have high level heroes. Had at least four 5 level party members and 3 4 level party members and lot of level 3 people. And thats with renown wasted on equipment items(learned also you sometimes get items as loot if you kill fleeing dredge, didn't ever manage to do that with Rook's caravan, but with Hakon's I did that almost always), Onef, Fastolt and Egil. So I'd say that you can sacrifice morale to have clansmen alive as well since morale just makes combat bit more difficult. Unless you play on hard, it shouldn't be major factor, I completed Bellower fight with below normal morale. Oh and I did that with recruiting as much clansmen as I could, didn't even realize until after the game that that is why it was harder to keep supplies high at late game :'D I did reload to avoid bad choices I did in events though, so that did make things bit easier of course.

Granted, I had to take Onef's offer because I had no other way of getting enough supplies to survive long enough <_< Need to experiment more next time if there is anyway to get supplies to last until next city at that point xD

Aleonymous
11-26-2015, 03:38 AM
Getting those Steam achievements ain't so hard; you might manage it in a single play-through, even though sοme of them are really incompatible (e.g. no starvation AND high morale). Speaking of this, playing on Hard (and being good at battles :p) is actually the best way to go, because you earn more Renown to spend on Supplies. I think taking Onef's help is the only RNG-independent way to cross the frozen waste, from Frostvellr to Wyrmtoe, without starvation/low-morale; else, you'd need to rely on RNG to give you a random-event that rewards you with Supplies/Morale.

StromMask
11-26-2015, 03:49 AM
I WAS arguing that its not really hard to recruit as many clansmen as possible and keep them all safe from starvation if you want to xD So I don't exactly disagree about those achievements being not that hard or even normal difficulty now that I get mechanics better :P Might be hard to have supply and morale achievement same time as you said, pretty sure its impossible to have morale and 120 day one at same time.

I am planning to do hard difficulty run next along with other stuff.

Aleonymous
11-26-2015, 05:47 AM
Good luck with your Hard playthrough :) In my last efforts I was trying to pick all battles and minimize hero knock-outs, without abusing the turn-order (e.g. bringing only your 2-3 super-buffed heroes in battles to get "turn advantage"). It was not very easy, actually, meaning that I had knock-outs on several occasions, e.g. 3-4 in total :o

spicykorean
11-26-2015, 07:50 AM
I'm still stuck at Bellower on Hard difficulty. Sigh.

Yellow
04-25-2016, 04:29 AM
The balance seems much better now, i did a full play trough on hard preparing for TBS2, and the whole starving situation felt a lot more manageable now, i even felt i had enough renown to level up my top guys without much compromise.

If anything i would still insist on allowing us to sell/trade unwanted items for renown.
And that the game should not magically take away all our hoarded supplies at the start of chapter 4. It is rather unfair that if we manage to finish chapter 2 with abundance of supplies, chapter 4 starts with a prefixed low number regardless, not cool bro!