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View Full Version : Feedback and Suggestions regarding Traveling and Population for future Chapters!



Yellow
09-30-2014, 04:21 AM
The fact is that our population and travel time matters very little as of right now, both gameplay mechanics are sadly just a complete farce.

Here are my thoughts on what is wrong with it and how to fix it:


*Keeping as many peasants as possible alive. grants you nothing, not even a dialog line recognizing your effort; It should be so that the number of peasants in your caravan, affects how much renown you gain from battle and events. I think that would make sense both realistically and lore wise, as the more people that witness your victories, the word of mouth would spread faster and so would your renown. That way there is an actual incentive and penalty for keeping those mouths feed or the contrary.

*Your soldier numbers do not count for anything neither, as when a War scenario appears, the Dredge's number adjust/scale to yours( if you have 100 soldiers they will have around the same amount) It should be so that the Dredge's number don't scale with yours, and are either fixed on each scenario, or randomly generated; that way there is an incentive on having as many warriors as possible and being prepared for battle, otherwise some battles will be very hard to win and in some cases un-winnable. The auto-balance feature we have now, does more harm than good here.

*Lastly, there is no pressure what so ever on getting from point A to B, before X or Y time; You are supposedly being chased by a Dredge legion, but for some reason the game allows you to set camp and rest for 100+ days with no consequences. I think something similar to what FTL does regarding the Revel fleet chasing you and eventually catching you if you move too slow, should have been added to The Banner Saga!


Cheers for reading!

Aleonymous
09-30-2014, 07:29 AM
1. Keeping as many peasants as possible alive grants you nothing
2. Your soldier numbers do not count for anything either
3. There is no pressure what so ever on getting to point A or B before X or Y time

1. I agree on this. The only real "gameplay" problem is that death/starvation of clansmen reduces the caravan Morale, which reduces your Heroes' Willpower in combat. But, it's nothing too dramatic (just a couple of points less) and, after everybody dies out, you can still increase the Morale from zero to max with a rest of ~10 days (while fully supplied). Your suggestion: giving a boost to Renown earned through combat when your population is high, sounds like a good idea and is also logically explained.

2. Having a lot of combatants (Fighters + Varl) is supposed to make War battles easier. However, the difference was not so noticeable, at least to me. What makes this even less noticeable is that most War battles are scaled (to some extent) with respect to your team-power. This "auto balance" feature was used to make the same War battle equally challenging both a high- and a low-rank team. Personally, I believe that the game would profit from some more balancing. But, I should also note that the combat is quite complex, so balancing things like: {numbers & types of foes, stats & ranks, deployment zones etc} without making the battles too easy or too hard at the extreme scenarios, is not easy to do! Finally, I believe they should (1) drop that comparison of the exact number of foes and (2) tell explicitly how having a lot of combatants makes battles easier.

3. That troubled me too, especially at Sigrholm, when you are supposedly waiting for Juno to arrive. FTL's implementation of this "pursuing threat" (Rebel Fleet) is indeed a good example to follow.

JackJammer
09-30-2014, 09:54 AM
I totally agree with you. Despite beeing fun to play, there wasn't any real reasons to maintain a big caravan or to rush to any destination. it seemed to these factors were a good idea, but in reality reduced to something you look after if you want the achievements. Yellows ideas sound really good to me, if something like that would be implied in part 2, gameplay and atmosphere would really benefit from it...otherwise all these "pressure" parts of the game would just be a challenge if you play with some imagination (like oh my god i don't want these people i never see or hear about alive) or, like said, are looking for achievements

Arnie
10-01-2014, 09:13 AM
Thanks a lot for the feedback! I hope The Banner Saga 2 fixes some of these issues and others as well.

Tenebrais
10-05-2014, 07:58 AM
*Lastly, there is no pressure what so ever on getting to point A or B before X or Y time; You are supposedly being chased by a Dredge legion, but for some reason the game allows you to set camp and rest for 100+ days with no consequences. I think something similar to what FTL does regarding the Revel fleet chasing you and eventually catching you if you move too slow, should have been added to The Banner Saga!


Well, there is. You only have so many supplies; drag your heels too much and you'll starve. That'd be the equivalent to FTL's rebel fleet if the game were an FTL-style randomised run.

YaK
10-06-2014, 09:22 PM
I TOTALLY (101%!) with point one.

For point two, i recognize the problem, but i'm not sure the solution it's so simple, however there is a "Dangerous" thing that make battles more difficult if you have less warriors.

Point true doesn't seem a big issues... i agree with Tenebrais, starvation it's the big deal there and besides, immersion is so thick that you will FEEL the pressure anyway, let's remember that this is a strictly scripted game, also "random happenings" are not random.

Yellow
10-07-2014, 01:57 AM
@Yak and Tenebrais :


The problem is that starvation itself is just an illusion, nothing happens if you starve your whole caravan, other than having less willpower on the following battles. And even this can be easily avoided by simply buying some supplies again and resting a few days, then you will get excellent morale like if nothing ever happened.

The game fails to acknowledge that the whole caravan is dead. There is no game over screen, there is not even a dialog line between the main characters regarding the issue.

So in other words, the pressure to move fast and be well stocked is really non-existent, the game just relies on you not to see that fact because of "immersion". But immersion for me is about having an impact on the world and the characters with my actions, here there is no impact what so ever.

JackJammer
10-07-2014, 03:16 AM
So in other words, the pressure to move fast and be well stocked is really non-existent, the game just relies on you not to see that fact because of "immersion". But immersion for me is about having an impact on the world and the characters with my actions, here there is no impact what so ever.

exactly. while it's sure a lot of fun to play the game like starvation would be a big problem, the game itselfs doesn't give you any reason for doing so. it's enjoyable to play it like this, but like yellow said there should be some (real) consequences for the player if you don't move fast and/or let your caravan die. in my oppinion this is a must have in part 2 of banner saga.

Yellow
12-31-2015, 07:03 PM
Thanks a lot for the feedback! I hope The Banner Saga 2 fixes some of these issues and others as well.

Thanks for replying Arnie!

I know i can be very vocal at times about certain things both here and on Facebook(i am apparently even banned by you guys there). But i hope by no means that you guys ever feel that i simply want to criticize and trash talk about things just for the sake of it, that is no my intention at all. If i bother to express how i feel about certain things, is because i care about the game and the people behind it, not because i don't, even if at times my tone and choise of words could look like something else.

I am looking forward to see what The Banner Saga 2 and 3 has to offer, and hopefully also looking forward to see if any of the new changes and additions gets retrofitted into The Banner Saga 1!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and to all the other guys at Stoic!

Yellow
04-25-2016, 11:49 AM
So anyone who has already finished The Banner Saga 2, wants to bring some light into what was addressed and or changed in this regard?

Aleonymous
04-25-2016, 01:56 PM
There's a big discussion to be had here. I would like Stoic to be part of it, else it's just blowing in the wind =/

I think Saga2 is improved compared to Saga1, but we're not quite there yet. Clansmen & combatants have their uses now, but they still don't affect the gameplay/story as much as I expected. I understand that Stoic didn't want to shake things up too much with this mechanic, as other things might break apart, but I was hoping for something more brave than a tweak.

War overhaul was also slightly improved but not quite "good" yet. It still feels a bit unrewarding, meaning that you get just a bit more satisfaction (e.g. Renown) compared to victory in a regular battle.

Yellow
04-25-2016, 02:25 PM
From what i saw Clansmen now can gather supplies, and can be converted into Fighters, that is indeed an improvement. But do having a bigger caravan influences the renown we get from battles, etc?

I am not quite clear on how do "Wars" work now and how our Fighters numbers influence them. Are the enemy troops always somewhat balanced to match our own numbers like in The Banner Saga 1, or did they removed the forced balancing?

What happens if our whole caravan starves to death? Is it game over screen? Do any of the heroes and or NPCs make remark about it?

Zogg
04-25-2016, 03:54 PM
Last chapter with Bolverk's caravan situation after Godstone: Sea of Dredge moving to free their leader, we can see them,they coming! They don't need a rest! They will kill us! We should run! And you stay camping to upgrade your morale,cause you know now will be few fights, but even after this rest your heroes have moving penalty.
In Fighters in TBS2 no need absolutely,clansmen get food-profit, fighters need for what? i didn't understand.
So, in caravan and fighting action only one change-clansmen can get food, i didn't kill whole caravan of course,but something tells me nothing will happen.
p.s. TBS not economic simulator of caravan syrvival, caravan here is just decoration to main story of heroes,so i think it won't be change. Or need changes in this mechanics from part 1. Like Aleo said mb some modding from community. But some years past and i don't know nothing about modding,exept Aleo's experiments.

Aleonymous
04-26-2016, 02:07 AM
From what I understand:


Combatants (Fighters+Varl) affect the gameplay in two ways: Firstly, they make battles easier by reducing the "Danger" (hidden in-game parameter), which means that the enemy units are fewer or of lower Rank and, secondly, they protect the Clansmen in Wars, thus reducing casualties.
Clansmen affect the gameplay in two ways: Firstly, they "Forage" for supplies (once or twice per chapter, at fixed positions) and, secondly, they generate Renown in Wars, if they survive of course!

Both categories consume the same supplies (100 population requires 1 supply unit per day), but Clansmen are said to consume less because they also Forage.

Wars are too few (5-6?) and too "case-specific", so that we can't really break them down and understand how each parameter affects them. We are "blindly" hoping that by having more Fighters we will have better chances in Wars. An interesting experiment would be to test a specific War with 600 combatants and 0 clansment, and vice-versa. How was the difficulty affected? How much Renown was gained?

As Zogg says, I don't think that starving the entire caravan to death will lead to a game over. Even if it does, having zero population is a corner case unlikely to arise even in an exaggerated playthrough. I'd have liked the population to have an impact on the story, for example: If you lead a caravan of 300+ combatants to Frostvellr, Ekkill opens the gates and becomes friendly; if it's 300 clansmen, you're not allowed to enter and he's hostile against you. Anyway, it's a bit sad to realize that the caravan (as Zogg says, again) is just a vehicle for the story/plot/heroes and the its population only marginally affects the gameplay.

Yellow
04-26-2016, 03:09 AM
Thanks for the explanation Aleo, it seems nobody is 100% clear about it yet, maybe the game should be a bit more transparent and informative about how those things work.


I'd have liked the population to have an impact on the story, for example: If you lead a caravan of 300+ combatants to Frostvellr, Ekkill opens the gates and becomes friendly; if it's 300 clansmen, you're not allowed to enter and he's hostile against you.

+1 That would have been great!

YaK
04-27-2016, 11:18 AM
I'd like to know better how war's mechanic works.

I assume threat level work the same as BS1, but the rest is a bit unobvious (how are injuries, renown and fighter losses calculated?)

Aleonymous
04-27-2016, 01:18 PM
I'd like to know better how war's mechanic works.

I assume threat level work the same as BS1, but the rest is a bit unobvious (how are injuries, renown and fighter losses calculated?)

I think that a peak into the game files will be sufficient for that. My guess is that a simple rule-set applies. For example, casualties in clansmen depend on: (a) War outcome, (b) hero knockouts during the battle, (c) war-specific strategic option related to War "Danger/Threat" level, (d) Fighters/Clansmen ratio; I suppose there's also a "floor" casualties level (e.g. a 1-5% percentage) that cannot be reduced no matter how good your choices and battle performance is!

Yellow
02-01-2017, 09:58 PM
I'd have liked the population to have an impact on the story, for example: If you lead a caravan of 300+ combatants to Frostvellr, Ekkill opens the gates and becomes friendly; if it's 300 clansmen, you're not allowed to enter and he's hostile against you.

Anyone who has been following the new kickstarter campaign knows if this or something similar might make it into the 3rd game? Are there any news at all so far about new mechanics, more in-deep caravan/clan management etc?

YaK
02-01-2017, 11:00 PM
We don't know nothing new about this topics at the moment, Yellow.

Aleonymous
02-02-2017, 03:12 AM
We don't know nothing new about this topics at the moment, Yellow.

... and from the looks of it, Saga3 is going to be quite different compared to the previous games. It's unlikely that a caravan of unarmed clansmen will be guided into the Darkness!

Yellow
02-03-2017, 09:13 AM
... and from the looks of it, Saga3 is going to be quite different compared to the previous games. It's unlikely that a caravan of unarmed clansmen will be guided into the Darkness!

true that.