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AndrewW
02-19-2013, 11:02 AM
Alright so I had a slight issue with Renown and would like to just start a discussion on it.

Is the amount of renown balanced?

I ask because in general you gain between 4-9 renown per match, depending on if you are victorious, playing 30-sec mode and are matched against an even opponent or an all-Advanced team.

Yet the act of changing a character's name costs 15 renown, promoting one of your characters to Advanced so you stand a chance against those with more experience and better characters costs 50. And upgrading said Advanced guys with more stats costs 4 renown each. Then opening more slots is 60, changing the colour of your characters is even more on top of promotion. It adds up.

In my mind, this makes it a long, arduous process to upgrade your army of warriors. Unless you wish to shell out real money to BUY your way to the top, which is a process I can understand a game from a third party studio having, but its not something I do. And I don't appreciate being forced to battle people who do, which it seems is the case at the moment.

I am a new player, having gotten in yesterday, but I have been playing games, especially Strategy RPGs, for a long time. It just seems the initial cost of promotion, plus the name change cost and smaller stuff is a little steep.

That is my opinion at least.

franknarf
02-19-2013, 11:20 AM
It's not that long and arduous; enjoy the journey! :) Hopefully, after the public launch, you will be matched against more similar teams.

By the way, what does "third-party" mean here?

raven2134
02-19-2013, 11:27 AM
I played 10 games today, all basic vs basic. So I don't think being mismatched is a big issue right now.

If you look at the cost of everything, it is a bit steep. But, if you prioritize what you want to do, I assure you, can have a working build within 2 weeks, even if you only play 1-2 hours or 3-6 matches a day.

Now note, that's being on even footing with anyone, within 2 weeks. The rest of the things you can spend on, more units, more experimenting for builds, more colors, are all things that aren't really core to being able to play in a "complete" state. At that kind of pace, I think it's quite good at getting new players used to the mechanics and passive abilities, as well as the initial importance of certain stat points, and I think its a reasonable amount of time to invest to reach that point.

tnankie
02-19-2013, 05:27 PM
Um.....

assuming an average of 5 renown per game.
3 matches, 7 days a week, 2 weeks.

5 x 3 x 7 x 2 = 210 renown.
not enough to upgrade a team.

And we both know full well that the default assignment of points is sub-optimal. (Even on the advanced classes) So that is not an even footing.

Personally I don't think renown cost is too steep. However one shouldn't trivialise/dismiss their concerns with shaky numbers.

raven2134
02-19-2013, 07:07 PM
Hi, 210 right? :). Your Starting team, has 5 basic units and 1 thrasher. To only promote, would be 250 renown, 5x50. Just 1 unit short

Enough, considering I said 1-2 hours, 3-6 matches everyday for 2 weeks. Even on the minimum of my ranges.

Using the mean of my estimates, that's 4.5 games a day x5 renown per gamex7x2=315 renown. Enough to allocate the 11th point and redistribute 10 stat points on the team (not per character)

Flickerdart
02-19-2013, 08:25 PM
I've played a couple of matches yesterday and another few today, and have two promotions, both of which had their stats tweaked a little bit. In three more days, then, I will have a full team of promoted guys (including the free Thrasher) after which I imagine gaining renown will go a little smoother. I don't play very long, and lose more often than I win, so I feel I'm a decent benchmark for where other new players will end up.

John
02-19-2013, 10:35 PM
Renown progression rate is indeed a delicate thing. Too quickly and it is boring and not fun. Too slowly and it is frustrating. Too much at the high end and you end up after a few months with more renown than you can use.

One thing I should mention, though, is that we are currently putting in a bunch of Achievements that will especially help newer players get those little extra bumps of renown to be able to promote and upgrade in a timely manner.


I've played a couple of matches yesterday and another few today, and have two promotions, both of which had their stats tweaked a little bit. In three more days, then, I will have a full team of promoted guys (including the free Thrasher) after which I imagine gaining renown will go a little smoother. I don't play very long, and lose more often than I win, so I feel I'm a decent benchmark for where other new players will end up.

erom
02-19-2013, 10:43 PM
I noticed the "First Win" and "First Game" bonuses, figured more would be coming.

You guys going to be able to link them to Steam chevos? Not at all necessary, just mildly curious.

bmacklin
02-20-2013, 02:11 AM
I do feel like renown is gathered a bit slowly, but I understand why.

It's going to be hard to keep up with people unless you play 10+ matches per day or buy renown.

jofr
02-20-2013, 03:09 AM
Played my first matches yesterday. Excellent game!

I don't mind the renown cost but I do feel that it makes experimenting and learning the game difficult.

Since I havn't played the beta I have no idea how the advnce units work and what build to shoot for. I get the feeling that if I do not have a solid plan already now and spend renown in the "wrong place" it will set back my progression. And if balance changes are done down the line my team just may become suboptimal over night.

Maybe I just need to play more games with the base classes too get a better understanding of the game, but a training mode where I can try out all classes would be awesome.

Michael_Kpow
02-20-2013, 06:04 AM
For those worried about being left behind and not being able to effectively compete against higher promoted teams, itis worth keeping in mind that you are matched against combatants of a similar strength. Unless you are playing friend battles with a very promoted team, then you will rarely be the weakest on paper by a large margin in a battle.

The New Romance
02-20-2013, 05:41 PM
I'm still pissed I tried to experiment with changing stats on units and didn't understand that every change, adding and subtracting, costs renown right away. I didn't even want to change them for real, I was just trying to find out how it worked. Well, the full renown for a won battle down the drain. Maybe you should issue a warning to new players in this regard :)

John
02-20-2013, 06:12 PM
You should like the next build which we are testing now! :)


I'm still pissed I tried to experiment with changing stats on units and didn't understand that every change, adding and subtracting, costs renown right away. I didn't even want to change them for real, I was just trying to find out how it worked. Well, the full renown for a won battle down the drain. Maybe you should issue a warning to new players in this regard :)

The New Romance
02-20-2013, 08:12 PM
Ah, thanks John. That's good to hear! By the way, I didn't mean to come off as being actually annoyed, the "being pissed" was more tongue-in-cheek. But still nice you're changing it :)

EDIT: Oh yes, I do like the change! :) Thanks for listening to those of us who suggested it, and thanks for acting this quickly!

tnankie
02-20-2013, 09:23 PM
For those worried about being left behind and not being able to effectively compete against higher promoted teams, itis worth keeping in mind that you are matched against combatants of a similar strength. Unless you are playing friend battles with a very promoted team, then you will rarely be the weakest on paper by a large margin in a battle.

Huh?
I am still trying to figure out how the MM works, but based on previous posts I understand the MM to explicitly forbid matching with a power differential of 20. But unless someone is taking a lot of points out of some basic units I can't see how this can occur currently. Unless the ranking differential is backwards converted into the power rating. (200/6)

Even still wouldn't that mean that a new player could be facing a 6 advanced unit team with a 500 (20 -5 = 15, 15 x 200/6 = 500) rating differential. I'd say that is a fairly large miss match on paper. (But my numbers are probably very old and I think the power calculation is about to be changed)

John
02-20-2013, 11:22 PM
Well as Arnie pointed out, one of the most fun things in the game has been tweaking stats and trying out different builds. We don't want to put unnecessary roadblocks there.


Ah, thanks John. That's good to hear! By the way, I didn't mean to come off as being actually annoyed, the "being pissed" was more tongue-in-cheek. But still nice you're changing it :)

EDIT: Oh yes, I do like the change! :) Thanks for listening to those of us who suggested it, and thanks for acting this quickly!

John
02-20-2013, 11:39 PM
The relative power is the _hard_ constraint. The system starts out trying to match you with a zero difference (60vs60, 66vs66, etc...). Over the course of 1 minute it slowly opens up the power window to a difference of 6 (60vs66).

Within your hard power window, it tries to find the best match for you using a combination of power delta and Elo delta, where +200 Elo is treated as +6 Power equivalent. It also weights the match against someone with the same timer (Expert vs. 60 sec). A +30 timer delta is equivalent to +100 Elo.

Currently, if you match against someone with +3 Power, you get an underdog bonus of +1 renown.

In the next build, underdog bonus will scale up with more power delta, possibly Power [2...6] -> Renown [1...3].


Huh?
I am still trying to figure out how the MM works, but based on previous posts I understand the MM to explicitly forbid matching with a power differential of 20. But unless someone is taking a lot of points out of some basic units I can't see how this can occur currently. Unless the ranking differential is backwards converted into the power rating. (200/6)

Even still wouldn't that mean that a new player could be facing a 6 advanced unit team with a 500 (20 -5 = 15, 15 x 200/6 = 500) rating differential. I'd say that is a fairly large miss match on paper. (But my numbers are probably very old and I think the power calculation is about to be changed)

tnankie
02-21-2013, 03:15 AM
John, thank you.
That really clears things up for me.
(Now how can I game this system? I like trying to break things)

raven2134
02-21-2013, 03:49 AM
As long as you tell us how you did :D...so Stoic can fix it.

tnankie
02-21-2013, 05:16 AM
Well I did last time and then got smashed by a whole lot of people abusing it while I was trying to bring up a basic team...should have kept my mouth shut! :)

piotras
02-21-2013, 05:24 AM
The relative power is the _hard_ constraint. The system starts out trying to match you with a zero difference (60vs60, 66vs66, etc...). Over the course of 1 minute it slowly opens up the power window to a difference of 6 (60vs66).

Within your hard power window, it tries to find the best match for you using a combination of power delta and Elo delta, where +200 Elo is treated as +6 Power equivalent. It also weights the match against someone with the same timer (Expert vs. 60 sec). A +30 timer delta is equivalent to +100 Elo.

Currently, if you match against someone with +3 Power, you get an underdog bonus of +1 renown.

In the next build, underdog bonus will scale up with more power delta, possibly Power [2...6] -> Renown [1...3].

Just to see if I understand:

Let's say there's a 1) newcomer with a 60 power team and 2) experienced player (mid-range elo) with a 63 point team. If a top 20 player enters the matchmaker with a basic 60 power team, he would be more likely to be assigned to the player 1) with hundreds of elo difference but the same team power, rather than someone closer to his elo, but with stronger team power, like player 2?

sweetjer
02-24-2013, 05:27 AM
Sounds right to me pio. He's saying that you match for power level first and then for quantified skill level. Quantified skill level is overall elo, power difference (+6 = 200), and the timer (30 = +100). Once it quantifies your skill level it matches you to the closest skill level in your closest power tier.

tnankie
02-24-2013, 03:59 PM
I am not so sure Poitras, I don't think it is that simple. My take on the MM is that it treats 200 elo difference as a 6 power, hence if there is more than 200 difference they wont be matched.I also think that it depends on how long you are in queue, the MM gets increasingly desperate to match you the longer you are in queue.

So if really balanced (rating and power, MM can't account for skill/inebriation) games are what you are looking for then don't queue for more than 10-20 seconds. leave the queue and re-enter it. It will reset your timer.