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View Full Version : Warmaster/Thrasher build Unbalanced?



Wordplay
02-23-2013, 02:56 PM
At the moment I've just started running 1Warmaster 2Thrasher 1 Warrior 2 Archer.

The WM built 10/13/4/2/2 I think, and the Thrashers built 10/10/5/2/2 as I recall. I had a match earlier today where my opponent claimed that their last 6 matches had been against this build, and that they'd been unable to win any of them. They also suggested that the build was broken.

Now, my opponent surrendered before we could finish the match, but it was going my way. I'm not too sure either way whether this build is broken, but it seems that if it is then it's on a similar basis to the old 2 WM 3 TH, in that it stacks so much direct damage that you have to go for a kill on each unit.

Have other people noticed this sort of build being particularly prevalent at the moment? If so, do you think that it's broken?

piotras
02-23-2013, 03:27 PM
I'm not sure if I'm up to date in the discussion about this build but this combo indeed seems deadly and some veteran players / 'chat usuals' call it OP, although (like with every game) it's not impossible to beat it, it's just much much much harder to play against. Might be wrong, but last time I've seen Stoic talking about it they didn't believe there's a problem.

Personally I find this build easier to play since less things can go wrong and being able to one-shot kill the most heavily armoured units in the game is definitely sweet. It is beatable and I've managed to win with inexperienced players using it, although just because it's not unbeatable doesn't necessary mean that it's balanced properly.

Grits
02-23-2013, 04:21 PM
Your stat's aren't even set to 'OP mode' ;)
I think they are just complaining, but I do agree that the 2WM build is the strongest I have faced...when stated correctly. Waiting to see some high level play with a different build. Tirean was testing 1PK 1SM and that seemed 'ok'. Just need to find a way to maim the WMs before they get too close.

piotras
02-23-2013, 06:18 PM
Played a bit today and indeed the double WM (or WM/WH) is very very popular, but used by players of all skills levels. Just now I won a game where someone rushed all his units straight at me (including an archer...) for armour break and I'm quite surprised how effective that approach was although did not involve any tactics whatsoever.

Conundrum
02-23-2013, 06:32 PM
I managed to beat a similar build yesterday (WH WM BB BM 2xTH) - the secret was definitely in maiming the Warriors asap. I managed to do this through a combination of SS pressure and some unfortunate positioning on my opponents part... but it was still a very close game. I shudder to think how it would have gone had it been played perfectly.

raven2134
02-23-2013, 09:47 PM
There's no mistaking the 2 WM build is powerful and effective. Note though, that the thrashers have received a nerf since then, at least making that a bit easier to handle.

I think there are some tactics we can try employing against the build, such as side deploying or lateral movement, to hopefully catch a warrior. As people have mentioned, winning vs this build depends on whether you can maim the warriors first.

Arnie has been hinting that in the near future, the grudgewielder will probably change the dynamic of things.

Jorgensager
02-23-2013, 10:01 PM
Arnie has been hinting that in the near future, the grudgewielder will probably change the dynamic of things.

By being a good counter or just being even more OP? :p

raven2134
02-23-2013, 10:54 PM
Probably by being a good counter :p Not sure myself.

Conundrum
02-24-2013, 02:08 AM
The key is definitely to get the first hit in on the warriors. This is difficult when there's two of them, but you can use positioning to your advantage - I managed to maim 1 warrior with my archers, and to block the second one from retaliating (or maiming my WH) by positioning an already-hurt unit. If played perfectly, this would be very scary, but how many people can play perfectly in the 30-second timer conditions?

Bloodaddict
02-24-2013, 05:49 AM
Hi, I read about the OP WM before a few times when I logged into the forum and scrolled through the last lines of the chat. Now that there is a own thread about it I have to ask: What is actually so powerful with the WM? As I wrote in another thread, I didn't really play it except for the beginning of the beta and was not so impressed. But maybe I played it wrongly...

Conundrum
02-24-2013, 07:00 AM
What's being discussed here isn't simply a WM in isolation - it's a specific build which features 2 WM (or a WM and a WH), two thrashers, a BB, and an archer (usually a SS). It can be difficult to play against, but there are counters. I don't know how restrictive the counter builds are, exactly, but positioning is very important for the build, so things like SA and SS, and the Beach map, can wreak havoc with it if used effectively.

piotras
02-24-2013, 08:32 AM
Arnie has been hinting that in the near future, the grudgewielder will probably change the dynamic of things.

Assuming he won't get one-shot killed beforehand! Anyway... are new units the priority after public launch or rank 2 and 3 will be introduced first? I had the impression that the latter are the priority.

Wordplay
02-24-2013, 11:00 AM
I split my force into two groups, 1 TH, 1 WM, 1A, which makes it harder to counter with positioning tactics.

I have to say I really do not like the Thrasher nerf. Some kind of nerf needed to be done, but I hate having that miss chance - I'd even rather it was reduced to 3 definite strikes...(Strength or armour) hate getting a miss, even if I come out ahead - really puts me off bloody flail. Another suggestion I've heard is have adjacent allies reduce the miss chance, instead of adding extra damage, which is probably my preferred way to deal with BF.

@Bloodadict: Well, I usually built it with three thrashers rather than 2 +1 backbiter, but the principle is the same. The Warmaster is very high strength, so he can usually one shot, or at least badly cripple a unit in one turn. What differentiates the Warmaster from the other Warriors is that if it has willpower it can always do direct damage with its ability. This makes it useful, even crippled, in the mid-game, and potentially lethal, even crippled, in the late game. If you can keep one intact until the late game, then unless your opponent has a lot of archers, or some other counter, you've pretty much won.

Having 2 increases the chances that you'll be able to keep one alive, and practically guarantees 2+ kills if you use them sensibly. The other component is the Thrashers - they also do direct damage, so they're dangerous even when crippled. This gives you 5 units that you have to kill, rather than cripple. Killing them creates a turn advantage, so you run out of good choices quickly. This kind of build is very difficult to counter in expert hands. You might think a defensive build would be the best way to counter it, but we found out that you actually have to be aggressive playing this kind of build, because you can't afford it getting in the first hit.

Bloodaddict
02-24-2013, 12:52 PM
Wordplay, thanks for the explanation! You said that the WM does direct damage. But it is not like the Thrashers who ignores armor, right? But due to the guaranteed hit of the ability it always does 1 Strength + 1 Armor, even when crippled, is that true? Or is it even 2 Str + 1 Armor guaranteed? I am not sure how to understand the description. (I should really have used the beta to learn more about all the units... ;) )

piotras
02-24-2013, 02:24 PM
2+1 guaranteed, even at 1 str vs 17 armour, so it's in practice a armour-ignoring shot although it's described a bit differently.

Tirean
02-24-2013, 02:39 PM
This is how you remember how much WM damage does.

If your str is higher than the enemies armor you do an 1/1
If your str is lower than the enemies armor you do a guaranteed 2/1