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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: When you win, it's because you were better - would be nice

  1. #1
    Backer Morgenstern72's Avatar
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    When you win, it's because you were better - would be nice

    First let me say that I love Factions! I love the strategy, the possibilities, the art, the animations, the sound...its really my thing.

    But on the front page the developer state that "When you win, it's because you were better".
    Well, that's not true. Especially with the Trasher.

    I have seen so often that the Trasher misses or devastates the enemy. In my last game my Trahser did hit 6 strength points, killing the other unit. It could have done 2 Armor, one Strength and then a miss too. That is pure luck and I only won the game because of my lucky hit.

    Same with units that have a miss chance. The fight is to short to really feel this chance. I always strike with a 90% hit chancen and I always hit. Seen opponents that did not hit with 90% three times a row. Sure you can better your chance with reducing armor but it's still luck.

    I would be happy if these luck based chances would be eradicated.
    Last edited by Morgenstern72; 02-26-2013 at 07:15 AM.

  2. #2
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    Luck only comes to those who are better, hence the phrase
    If you don't know where to put it - put it in the pillage

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  3. #3
    Superbacker piotras's Avatar
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    The current state of the Trasher's bloody flail is the outcome of a lot of balancing issues we had in the beta (especially 4-5 trasher teams).

    But I do agree with you about the randomness of his hits, he went from being my favourite unit to the most annoying unit in the game. It's the most disappointing thing to work hard to achieve 3-side flanked formation just to miss on the last hit of the bloody bloody flail!

    I had a campaign of trying to persuade the devs in changing him (for example always do 4 hits, but start with 25% chance of inflicting strength damage when solo and get 25% increased chance for every adjacent ally unit OR do armour break as base attack, but do a guaranteed strength attack per adjacent ally, either way always 4 total damage). I believe that the mechanic of extra damage in the last hit was what made him too strong when in large groups, a mechanic which exponentially increases their effectiveness in large numbers.

    The current system supposed to make it less likely to happen on average of hundreds of hits, but putting the theory aside and looking at it in practice you end a game feeling that with those 2-5 hits that your Trasher did this last game he was either super duper lucky (leaving your opponent pissed off) or super duper game-changingly unlucky, leaving you pissed off.
    Last edited by piotras; 02-26-2013 at 09:34 AM.

  4. #4
    Backer mcloud357's Avatar
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    who dares, wins.
    you're indifferent to suffering, insensitive to joy. All of life is reduced to the common rubble of banality. War, murder, death are all the same to you as bottles of beer. The daily business of life is a corrupt comedy. You even shatter the sensations of time and space into split-seconds and instant replays. You are madness, Diana, virulent madness, and everything you touch dies with you. Well, not me. Not while I can still feel pleasure and pain and love.

  5. #5
    Backer Morgenstern72's Avatar
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    Piotras, that's exactly what I mean.
    I will never build a trasher again since you cannot rely on his last hit but rely on everbody elses special ability (so far as I know). As know I really like the guy who can get behind enemy lines, doing strength damage while going through and then hit from behind. Sorry I dont remember his name right now...
    Last edited by Morgenstern72; 02-26-2013 at 08:16 AM.

  6. #6
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    I think it's ok not to like the thrasher. You may feel the game relies a lot on chance because the thrasher is a starting unit for new players.

    It's a matter of playstyle if you want to be relying on chance or going for guaranteed shots. Some random chance is good too, don't forget, or the game would be much less unpredictable, more stale, and there would be less gutsy comebacks.

  7. #7
    Backer Morgenstern72's Avatar
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    Raven, you are half-right. Half, because you cannot choose your opponents units.

    Since I had only a few fights (have now a rank 4 team) I am still stuck with my trasher (since I need 4 small warrirors for my style) and it frustrates me to see him miss and my opponents to see him kill a wounded but highly armored warrior with one blow.

    And new players will judge the game based on their first few fights. And the trasher can highly frustrate anyone that relies on good tactics just to see him fail because of bad luck.

  8. #8
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    I see. That's also a valid point. Though it doesn't make it any less viable to go for sure hits using the thrasher instead of the ability.

    The ability isn't mean to always be used or relied upon. Most abilities are a matter of timing and situation.

  9. #9
    Backer Morgenstern72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    The ability isn't mean to always be used or relied upon. Most abilities are a matter of timing and situation.
    Which other ability is there you cannot rely on (except your oppenent blocks it with good strategy or you block it yourself with bad strategy)?

  10. #10
    Senior Member Shiri's Avatar
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    Speaking as someone who dislikes randomness of this nature in games generally, the old thrasher didn't offend me too much. 3 armour + final hit 3 strength was generally worse than 6 strength total, but eh. Now, though, the miss makes him absurdly swingy. The best case/worst case scenarios with the ability used in the exact same situation are too disparate.

    I guess that's the same with willpowered shots into higher armour, but I always saw that mechanic as just being there to reduce the likelihood of silly stalemates where you both have 10 armour and 1hp and have to spam grind the armour down before you can finish each other off, which would be anticlimactic. The side effect is that it's often important for archers to take 90% shots at each other because of their armour levels, but I think treating that would cause more problems than it would solve for the aforementioned reasons so I'm willing to let it go.

  11. #11
    Junior Member Ziggy's Avatar
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    The "luck" aspect is just a part of the tactics - knowing it's unreliable means you have to account for the potential to fail within your plan. While I can't think of other abilities with similar functions, there are any numbers of examples of risk/reward situations were you make an attempt and need to plan for both success and failure.

  12. #12
    It's tough to think of how we would change the thrasher to remove the randomness - we tried it without a miss chance on the last hit and it was totally overpowered, and before that we tried it without the miss chance or bonus damage on the last hit and they were kinda weak. If you reduce the randomness, they'll need to be nerfed in some other way, and it's really easy to make them too weak and everyone will just migrate to raidmasters and backbiters.

  13. #13
    Backer Morgenstern72's Avatar
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    erom, how about to base the last hit upon the opponent? Could be everything you see fit: Varls, Archers, hihigh/low armor, units that have/give shield bonus and so on. Something you can build yout tactics on and something your opponent can try to block your abilitiy.

    I would like a trasher that hits at the last strike with x times the shield bonus a unit has, done as armor damage. Would make him kind of a breaker of shield rows. And I FAVOR shield rows for my units

  14. #14
    Senior Member Shiri's Avatar
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    Morgenstern, that would make the ability overspecialised. When there are way more units in this game, a much smaller proportion of them will have shield wall bonuses, so the unit would stop making sense in that context. When it's dependent on his OWN shield wall, it's modular, so it can go well with any setup.

  15. #15
    Bloody flail works the same way as % chance shots work. Its a risk vs reward factor. The skill in using both of those is in future planning "if this misses/hits the thing I don't want it to what would the outcome of the game be." It takes experience to know when you should and shouldn't be doing something. If you are swinging BlF constantly and noticing you are losing because of the "randomness" maybe you should looking at using the unit differently and only using BlF in situations which give you much greater reward vs the risk of missing.

  16. #16
    Superbacker piotras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgenstern72 View Post
    Piotras, that's exactly what I mean.
    I will never build a trasher again since you cannot rely on his last hit but rely on everbody elses special ability (so far as I know). As know I really like the guy who can get behind enemy lines, doing strength damage while going through and then hit from behind. Sorry I dont remember his name right now...
    You mean the backbiter

    I largely agree with you Morgenstern72, I don't like the Trasher's current iteration, but I need to admit that he fills a role that other units don't (my point is that it maybe could fullfil it in a less annoying way). Before we jump on the hate-wagon, consider this before removing the Trasher from your rooster:

    - if build for survival, he is your best bet to win a high armour/low strength situations at end-game
    - if build for damage, he is less-likely to become maimed due to the fear or his special which potentially can generate up to 7 damage even at 1 strength (and the fact that he can rest or generate WP through the horn-associated kills), thus due to being dangerous at any point in the game he is bound to die early, giving you the turn advantage

    I need to admit that I still use him in the many builds that I play and he can be of use. I think about him as I do about a vaccination - hate it, but sometimes there's no other way ;P For example, for a build I made yesterday I needed a raider who will work in concert with my frontline Raidmasters; block, disrupt, soak up damage and eventually die after doing a bit of damage in time for my damage dealers to get into range (although I hope his spot will be taken up by a different raider in the future...)

    To not go bonkers over the misses I advise to consider this - if the armour is low enough, you tend to go for strength damage, if the armour is too high, you armour break, right? So:

    - if you want guaranteed 3 armour break on your raider than choose a reliable option of the Raidmaster or Backbiter
    - however, if you want guaranteed 3 damage with 50% chance of some of it being directed to strength and a 66% chance that there will be a 1-3 extra damage bonus for just 1 WP, than take the Trasher
    Last edited by piotras; 02-26-2013 at 10:36 AM.

  17. #17
    Member Dysp's Avatar
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    Admittedly, my free thrasher has missed nearly 60% of his last hits, but still I like how the new Bloody Flail works. Blood Flail is a special case ability that is meant to be used to deal strength and/or armor damage against targets that have equal or higher armor than the thrasher's strength. With no adjacent teammates it can do anywhere from 0-4 strength damage, 0-4 armor damage, or a combination of the two less, 4 or less. For the one willpower, the thrasher has a chance to deal equal damage vs a high armor unit as if he were to use 3 willpower for a 4 damage attack, at matched strength vs armor. If you want to specifically armor break, the thrasher could be spec'd to use 3 willpower and 2 armor break to get a 5 armor break for sure, spending 2 more WP and stats you might want in armor or strength.

    If you want something sure, break and spend a lot more willpower. When armor is still high, I think it should be a gamble for the units trying to deal strength damage.
    Last edited by Dysp; 02-26-2013 at 11:34 AM.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member Wordplay's Avatar
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    Well, Thrashers are pretty useful even without Bloody Flail - they're probably the most flexible unit in the game, along with the Backbiter.

    +1 to Piotras' suggestion. That miss chance really annoys me. I still field thrasher heavy teams, and I agree that the nerf was necessary, but I really wish that the nerf had taken another form. Feels too luck based.

    I'd even be in favour of removing the bonus to Bloody Flail that the Thrasher from adjacent units. That was the problem really. In fact I'd prefer four hits, last hit always hits strength, each hit doing only one to strength or armour. That way strength damage is capped at four for BF. Still a bit of chance in it, but not too much.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by netnazgul View Post
    Luck only comes to those who are better, hence the phrase
    Quote Originally Posted by mcloud357 View Post
    who dares, wins.
    Um WTF are you two talking about? Roll and you will win seems implied. Forget tactics just take chances and the game will reward you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    The "luck" aspect is just a part of the tactics - knowing it's unreliable means you have to account for the potential to fail within your plan. While I can't think of other abilities with similar functions, there are any numbers of examples of risk/reward situations were you make an attempt and need to plan for both success and failure.
    yes....and no. While this is a practical way of dealing with the current situation I don't think that is what the OP is about. This is a philosophical discussion about the place of luck in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    Some random chance is good too, don't forget, or the game would be much less unpredictable, more stale, and there would be less gutsy comebacks.
    Like chess. [/sarcasm]
    Sorry Raven you set yourself up for that one too nicely, I had to tempest it, I couldn't help myself.

    I also hate the thrasher, and increasingly growing to hate the WP/exhertion through armour shots.

    If I were to put my junior game developer hat on I'd change the through armour chance to be inversely related to the current proportion of armour/max armour. I.e if they still have full armour you have no chance of damaging them if you don't have equal or better strength. But if they have half armour you have 50% chance of penetrating if your strength is lower than their armour.

    Actually I'd then make the thrasher roll against those same chances...only gets 2 hits. Does normal armour break with his first hit then does strength if he rolls and pens (or over matches armour with strength) other wise does 1 armour damage.

    ie a 10/12 3 break thrasher using flail against a shield breaker with 14/10 does normal break with first hit leaving 11/10 SB then the second hit over matches and does 1 strength damage.

    but against a 16/10 SB does 3 break leaving 13/10 SB but then has a 3/16 chance to do one strength damage with the second hit and if that misses does one more break.

    mind you against a 3/9 raider (that originally had 9 armour) the first hit would strip all armour and the second would kill....so maybe that is a bit overpowered. Although the same thrasher could just normal hit that raider and kill them so maybe not.
    Last edited by tnankie; 02-26-2013 at 04:24 PM.

  20. #20
    Backer Grits's Avatar
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    I always had an issue with the luck aspect of the TH. Doesn't fit. But I live with it
    Why not just make it a guaranteed 2 STR. +1 for adjacent guys.

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