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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: When you win, it's because you were better - would be nice

  1. #41
    Junior Member Ziggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eAZy View Post
    There's no reason to take him over the other Raider options in a dedicated plan.
    You pick him because the risk/reward goes both ways. As an opponent, leaving a Thrasher free and alive is a gamble because, sure, he could ineffectually whittle a little armour off of that guy but he might equally drop your precious archer. You either drop him, using up one of your turns and removing a crippled unit from theirs, or let them throw the dice, which is pretty poor planning.

    You don't actually have to do the damage to be a threat.

  2.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #42
    Creative Director Alex's Avatar
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    Even in terms of risk/reward, Thrasher fills a role. When seriously crippled, he can spend 1 will to do 3-6 damage of some variety. Used against an enemy who you don't mind whether you take off str or arm, it's an excellent output, and if you're lucky it can be devastating. I almost always kill Thrashers first chance I get.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenDread View Post
    Huh, actually I like to have that rather small influence of chance into the game. If you're losing, you can still go risky and do some 70% shots or something like that.
    Generally, some chance is also reducing the frustration of losing, because the loser can think to himself "Man, this could've been ended differently, if that thrasher had hit less strength."
    I definitely had a game like this. I think my exact quote, to my opponent, was "man I'm glad I've missed all these 90% hit-chance shots, because otherwise I'd have to credit your superior skill."

  4. #44
    On a personal level, though, while I think bloody flail is generally a bit excessively luck-oriented, I love the percent-miss chances. I try not to rely on luck, but there's nothing like the exuberance when you hit that 40% chance shot with three exertion.

  5. #45
    Backer Morgenstern72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Even in terms of risk/reward, Thrasher fills a role. When seriously crippled, he can spend 1 will to do 3-6 damage of some variety. Used against an enemy who you don't mind whether you take off str or arm, it's an excellent output, and if you're lucky it can be devastating. I almost always kill Thrashers first chance I get.

    If you are lucky. Or your opponent is unlucky. And not because you play better/worse. That's exactly what I had to say about the trasher in my first post. I jsut do not feel rewarded when my Trasher hits high because it is pure luck. I do feel rewarded when i poistion my units good, when I lure my opponent to attack the "wrong" units, when I plan the way of my Backbiter and my opponent is either forced to break his rows or let me go through. And this just makes me a little(!) sad because otherwise this game is extemeley rewarding good strategic thinking.
    Last edited by Morgenstern72; 02-27-2013 at 01:51 PM.

  6. #46
    Junior Member eAZy's Avatar
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    I agree that they are great when crippled, probably the best of any crippled unit. But the difference between a crippled Thrasher and a crippled raider is quite small: 3-6 unreliable for 1 willpower versus (most likely) 3 armour break + 1 for the same willpower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Used against an enemy who you don't mind whether you take off str or arm, it's an excellent output, and if you're lucky it can be devastating.
    It's safe to say you almost always, barring a next-turn puncture, want to hit strength.

    I think a simpler way to look at it is like this: you are paying 1 willpower for 3 guaranteed damage. This poses a few questions:

    Is this balanced in relation to the other raider abilities?
    In what circumstances would a Thrasher be better than the alternatives? What is the Thrasher's role?
    What sort of team would a Thrasher complement best?

    Thinking about these personally is making me want to experiment with them more.

  7.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #47
    Creative Director Alex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgenstern72 View Post
    If you are lucky. Or your opponent is unlucky. And not because you play better/worse. That's exactly what I had to say about the trasher in my first post. I jsut do not feel rewarded when my Trasher hits high because it is pure luck. I do feel rewarded when i poistion my units good, when I lure my opponent to attack the "wrong" units, when I plan the way of my Backbiter and my opponent is either forced to break his rows or let me go through. And this just makes me a little(!) sad because otherwise this game is extemeley rewarding good strategic thinking.
    Again, I don't disagree that some players don't like rolling the dice with Thrashers. We like having one unit who is a wildcard, he can be played smartly, and he fills a role. I understand that some people want to have 0 randomness in the game, and we limited it to 1 character for this reason. We don't feel that he's unbalanced to play against, or unbalances the game as a whole. We think it's fun! Opinions vary, of course.
    Last edited by Alex; 02-27-2013 at 02:53 PM.

  8. #48
    Junior Member Pelkrock's Avatar
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    I don't agree with the argument that if you miss the server decided that you were to lose and all your skill was for naught. It seems to me that a thrasher would be someone that you would not want to "Maim" and leave with low health as he still remains a potential threat on the board. Which would involve skill in mitigating how much of a threat he is compared to what other threats are left and who should be your priority. Also saying any game should have no luck is makes no sense even physical games between humans like basketball can be determined by luck, but a good coach knows how to mitigate that luck and skill into a win. Your the coach these are your players these, are your opponents use your intelligence and skill to win. Thrasher seems like a good addition that adds some depth as it's nice to have a piece that is still viable with low WP and low Str allowing me to pull back from a potential loss. You could say I was lucky or you could say he underestimated the threat my thrasher posed

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelkrock View Post
    I don't agree with the argument that if you miss the server decided that you were to lose and all your skill was for naught. It seems to me that a thrasher would be someone that you would not want to "Maim" and leave with low health as he still remains a potential threat on the board. Which would involve skill in mitigating how much of a threat he is compared to what other threats are left and who should be your priority. Also saying any game should have no luck is makes no sense even physical games between humans like basketball can be determined by luck, but a good coach knows how to mitigate that luck and skill into a win. Your the coach these are your players these, are your opponents use your intelligence and skill to win. Thrasher seems like a good addition that adds some depth as it's nice to have a piece that is still viable with low WP and low Str allowing me to pull back from a potential loss. You could say I was lucky or you could say he underestimated the threat my thrasher posed
    Find the 'enter' key, then use it.
    Secondly where is the luck in basketball? No really where? Unless you are talking about things humans are bad at/cant judge and calling that 'luck'.
    Thirdly kill is not always an option.
    Fourthly this is not about a unit that is low strength being a threat this is about random chance that is in-calculable.

    Make the thrasher do damage inversely proportional to strength, cool totally down with that. I am not cool with random chance.....although I guess if I knew which machine was generating the random numbers and the random seed used I could calculate what the roll would be and then it wouldn't be random...

    Actually what if the thrasher and hit through armour chance was shown as a certainty....as in not random, but variable. That is you know the result of the next 5 random rolls, so both players know what the next bloody flail and/or hits through armour are going to do. Still variable still has all the end game saving etc, avoids staleness, just not a dice roll.

  10. #50
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    That's an interesting compromise tnankie.

    I think the previous poster just mean even luck still plays a part in athletic sports. Can't deny that victories in real life are a combination of talent, effort, and luck.

  11. #51
    Actually I can deny it.

    Although I suspect again this is a definition thing. IMO what you are referring to as 'luck' in an athletic context, is not 'luck' in factions. One is a hugely complex deterministic system that is so emergent it is almost impossible for humans to predict in real time and the other is random chance/hidden information.

    I don't consider decisions made on incomplete information to be luck. I consider decisions based on complete information of a system that contains random elements to be lucky.

    -----------------------------

    Semantics aside, knowing the results of rolls in advance could be interesting, though I think it could be a tricky thing to include in the UI....how to get that information across?

    Although it could be a bit much....suddenly not only are you juggling turn order but also juggling random roll order.....'ooh look at that pair of 90s coming up, how do I use them before my opponent does and how do I deal with the 10 that needs to be used before the 90s?'

    Bring it on! Too much complexity is never enough right? (Complexity not complication, you can always have too much complication)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system
    https://softwarearchitecturezen.blogs...mplicated.html
    Last edited by tnankie; 02-27-2013 at 08:03 PM.

  12. #52
    I like the thrasher the way it is. He is my wildcard. Even on 1 strength, he is dangerous. I am not able to predict exactly how much damage he might output, but neither can my opponent. That's in part what makes him so dangerous.

    I usually use him as a kind of kamkazi unit, precisley because he can still be dangerous on 1 strength. My opponent has to choose wether to take him out (and possibly give me a turn advantage) or leave him loose to run around and causing a variable (but not completely random) amount of damage to his units.

    It adds an interesting dynamic to the game that the other units do not, but not in a game breaking way and not to a degree that makes him entirely exploitable. And that really, is why I like the thrasher as is.

  13. #53
    I just lost a game where 4 misses in total occurred. None of which were from a Thrasher and two of which were back to back.

    Having a turn wasted for no reason is pretty frustrating, especially if it's in a competitive environment. When I'm putting my wits to the test against another player, I expect a fair match and then win or lose I can end the game with the knowledge that my victory or loss was entirely my own. That is the most gratifying feeling a player can have in a competitive game in my opinion.

    So why on earth is there a completely hidden hit/miss system deciding whether I win or lose a game? At the very least, having the hit chance numbers visible would greatly inform a strategic decision rather than just having it be a total toss-up at any given moment, but honestly why can't strategy be the sole factor in who wins? Strategy deciding games rather than luck is all I ask for.

    My opponent by the way, missed none of his attacks, so while in theory we're playing on equal ground, the end result is that one player benefits from the system for no reason while the other loses because of it.

  14. #54
    ah, unless the latest build introduced a bug, you can see the chance to hit through armour (I presume that is what you are talking about?).

    That information is displayed in (above?) the red circle when selecting to attack armour or strength.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaLackey View Post
    So why on earth is there a completely hidden hit/miss system deciding whether I win or lose a game? At the very least, having the hit chance numbers visible would greatly inform a strategic decision rather than just having it be a total toss-up at any given moment, but honestly why can't strategy be the sole factor in who wins? Strategy deciding games rather than luck is all I ask for.
    The miss chance numbers are visible. They're right next to the str/arm buttons when you're choosing which to attack. You're not the first to not notice them though... maybe they should be highlighted more or something.

    The chance to miss is 10% for every point of strength less than the target's armor. So if a unit with 5 strength attacks a unit with 10 armor, they have a 50% chance to miss.
    Last edited by mrpresident; 02-28-2013 at 01:12 AM.

  16. #56
    Junior Member van's Avatar
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    I must agree with Morgenstern72 and tnankie, the luck factor found in trasher's bloody flail has been the single, most irritable and illogical thing found in Saga's gameplay so far. There's nothing worse than a toin coss in strategic games. I honestly can't find anything else that would bother me besides this.

    I would entertain the idea of entirely removing percentage hit and slightly nerfing trasher in another field, yet still making him viable even if that would require redesigning his ability completely. I realize this has been done in the pre-steam release, but I'm sure there must be a better way to balance him. The whole wild card aspect shouldn't appear in highly competetive games, and with trasher being the first promoted unit of most players, it's 'out there' from the very beginning.

  17. #57
    Junior Member Caropel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Again, I don't disagree that some players don't like rolling the dice with Thrashers. We like having one unit who is a wildcard, he can be played smartly, and he fills a role. I understand that some people want to have 0 randomness in the game, and we limited it to 1 character for this reason. We don't feel that he's unbalanced to play against, or unbalances the game as a whole. We think it's fun! Opinions vary, of course.
    Alex, i totally agree with you. We must not cry for randomness, we must embrace it.
    On an real fight, many fates have the luck factor on it. It is normal and it is part of this funny thing which is life.
    Just Deal With It.

  18. #58
    Backer Morgenstern72's Avatar
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    Idea
    After he used his ability, attacking completely normal, if the Trasher hits he does lower the armor of his opponent for 4/6/8 armor, as long as he and the opponent(s) are adjacent. (Maybe: Any unit that gives this opponent shield bonus gets halve of this temp armor reduction.) This would give a deep strategic meaning to the trasher. If you let him move first on an enemy that moves last your units will have an easy target.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finjinimo View Post
    I like the thrasher the way it is. He is my wildcard. Even on 1 strength, he is dangerous. I am not able to predict exactly how much damage he might output, but neither can my opponent. That's in part what makes him so dangerous.

    I usually use him as a kind of kamkazi unit, precisley because he can still be dangerous on 1 strength. My opponent has to choose wether to take him out (and possibly give me a turn advantage) or leave him loose to run around and causing a variable (but not completely random) amount of damage to his units.

    It adds an interesting dynamic to the game that the other units do not, but not in a game breaking way and not to a degree that makes him entirely exploitable. And that really, is why I like the thrasher as is.
    Very good reasoning.

    I like a strategic game that gives clear ways to play, but I find that this is more of a tactical game. And tactics must be able to adress the unforseen. Having a unit as the Thrasher creates unpredictability in managing you troops. I makes me feel nervous and excited and that is a feeling I like since it corresponds with real life.

    Real life that in my opinion is about marshalling your resourses (units) setting goals for your self (strategy/tactics) and learning to handle the gamechangers that will come your way (the Thrasher).

    Iīd rather get better at handling or managing the unpredictable and grow as a player than have this sometimes annoying but scary unit removed or changed.

    There will always be unit configurations that some players prefer and others donīt. So maybe the Thrasher is not for everyone. I for instance expect it to be challenging for me to lear how to properly use the special abilities of the Warleader and the Provoker. Maybe even so that they will be the last two units I promote to. But they as the Thrasher will shorly keep me sharp when on the opposing side.

  20. #60
    Junior Member Impaler's Avatar
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    Hello. I'm new to the game and have played around 30 matches. It's very interesting and contains great depth, however the randomness really concerns me.

    I don't think chance-based outcomes have a place in a game like this. It would be vastly improved if these elements were removed and/or replaced with something more creative than just a random number generator.
    Is it fun to play lottery and sometimes come up on top? Is it exciting for some individuals? Sure. But in no way, shape or form are you involved with the outcome. This becomes a problem when everything else can be predicted and relied upon. Sure, you can make statistical projections and attempt to "work around" these chance-based situations. That does not change the fact that games can be decided by this number generator alone. Would you flip a coin to determine the outcome of bishop captures queen in Chess? I wouldn't, and this makes it hard for me to take this game seriously.

    The whole chance-based luck element feels very gimmicky. While it does allow for some "unexpected comebacks" - I find they're absolutely worthless since they were brought out from luck and not skill or out-maneuvering your opponent (which is deserving of praise and a sense of accomplishment - unlike that of winning via pure luck). I would much rather win and lose games because of strategy, tactics, thinking-depth and positioning.

    I know this isn't Chess. This seems like a great game to me, holding much promise. This is only my personal opinion.

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