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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Mini-Compilation of Known Unit Info

  1. #21
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnie View Post
    I could go on and on, but we're doing the final IGF submission build today and need to get back to it. Wish us luck!
    Luck? What luck? Don't know anything about that, and you guys shouldn't care about it anyway It's a deterministic course of events that has led to your game being the Best, the GOTY, the what-have-you for all of us! But, if you insist... gl hf! (with no need for gg wp )

  2. #22
    Backer Slimsy Platypus's Avatar
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    Another interesting note that I haven't seen any discussion on is Iver...

    In the Pax Demo videos (for example #2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E0rhoN1Eog I spotted an interesting item:



    we see Iver clearly use the Strongarm's active ability "Battering Ram", although Iver does not have the conventional artwork of the Strongarm that we know and love from factions



    Here's Iver's portrait in the Pax Demo



    Here's an image that was throw in the end of a Kotaku article without any description of what it may contain, but we now know this is our boy Iver. You can check out the article here: Kotaku: The Art of the Banner Saga, One of the Most Beautiful Video Games I've Ever Seen



    When comparing Iver's artwork with the old Shield Wall in an image provided in an early Kickstarter update, you can tell it's a spot on match.

    Here's what we know from Stoic:
    • In this thread Alex said "the Shield Wall is now called the Champion"
    • 14-03, 18:56 Arnie: Remaining units not yet seen are: Wardog / Eagle Eye (interesting one there) / Grudgewielder / Champion. Champion will be first
    • 29-03, 09:04 Arnie: Champion is a SB [Shieldbanger]
    • 14-03, 18:56 Arnie: In my mind the new Eagle Eye and the Champion are going to be favorites

    Now the plan to bring the Wardog, Eagle Eye, Grudgewielder, and Chamption into Factions got temporarily derailed when the focus was shifted back towards Chapter 1 of the saga, so those items may no longer be relevant. However, the interesting questions this information raises are:
    - Has the original scope of unit types been re-evaluated by Stoic, including the number of units in the single player?
    - Will we have alternate artwork for various characters of the same class in the single player?
    - Or least excitingly, Is this simply not having the Champion's active ability implemented into the demo version of the game?

    Let the speculation commence!

  3. #23
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    I, too, was troubled by that. I guess it's what the man (or the varl, or the woman) has got inside, and not the accessories, that make the ability! Actually, just the generic SB's shield suffices to shove people around

    A similar discrepancy applies to Egil, the boy-Raidmaster. He does bear the trademark iron shield of RMs, but wields not an axe, but a short-sword. That's perhaps a good thing, because it seems to mean that Stoic's sprites/animations etc can mess with the characters "accessories" making vanity customizations easy. So, it's not just the colors that change, but also the arms, shields and faces!

    Returning to the Champion, there has been a lot of misty implications about what his ability does. Here are some enigmatic messages from the chat archive:
    • 26-03, 22:11 Arnie -- The Champion poses amongst his other friendly units, daring any foe.
    • 29-08, 16:33 raven2134 -- there was something outlandish said here regarding the champion // turns out it wasnt entirely a joke
    • 29-08, 19:08 hreinnbeno -- That the ability is autowin

    It's really not clear at all to me, but it does have something about it. Actually, between the four remaining Factions-clases (Champion, Wardog, Grudgewielder, Sharpshooter), it's the only really vague ability. The ShSh's we've seen, the GW's is something inversely proportional to the STR loss, the WD's is a head-butt thing.
    Last edited by Aleonymous; 11-06-2013 at 07:04 AM. Reason: Added YouTube link to WD's headbutt

  4. #24
    Senior Member Wordplay's Avatar
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    I noticed that ability in the playthrough, and assumed that Iver was just an example of alternative artwork for the Strongarm. I thought that this seemed pretty plausible, given that Egil, appearing in the same video, looks different from a normal Raidmaster. However, with most of the characters that we've seen so far, the difference is limited to swapping out the heads, and maybe some of the incidental decoration. Iver goes further...

    I agree that it looks as though Iver's art was originally supposed to be used for the Champion/Shieldwall (it is a pretty near dead on match). I can think of several possibilities. The most likely of which are either:-

    1) Iver's class was changed to Strongarm in playtesting, because it worked better for his role in the story and the early battles.

    2) Alternatively, Iver is still a Champion in the Saga, but Stoic swapped his class to Strongarm, for the videos only. Perhaps because Stoic weren't ready to reveal the ability of the Champion. After all, they were already revealing the abilities of the Eagle Eye/Sharpshooter, the Landsman, and the Hunter.

    3) Just maybe, it's either possible to respec classes, or Iver goes through/can go through a story event that causes him to change his class. If this is the case then it implies that the Champion ability has a very high level of difficulty to use effectively (as Stoic locks it from the first part of the game).

    In any event, I don't suppose that we'll know before the release of the single-player. Stoic are holding their cards pretty close to their chest on this one...

    I feel that we should be able to work out the abilities of the Wardog, Grudgewielder and the Champion by extrapolation from the rest of the classes, given that we now know the ability for the sharpshooter.

    Of the warrior class abilities, two synergize closely with the passive, the Warmaster's and the Warhawk's, and the other does not; the Warleader. The last animation update to the kickstarter shows the Wardog headbutting to use its ability. I've wondered if the Wardog's ability is to stun an opponent, but that seems rather similar to the skystriker and the provoker... unless maybe it also damaged the Wardog. I'd be willing to bet that the ability is a control/support type though, like the Warleader. I find the Wardog frustrating; we have the most information about it, but it remains an enigma to me. All I can think of is that there must be some kind of reason for that ridiculous strength... (even if it's as low as the Warmaster's, say that's still pretty high, and the Warmaster has good reason for having such high strength). ... A thought just occurred to me... maybe the Wardog can shut down active abilities. A hit from the Wardog, 'stuns' an opponent limiting it to strength or break...

    I'm pretty sure the Grudgewielder has an active ability that cares about how much damage the Grudgewielder has taken - Stoic have dropped some pretty heavy hints... Maybe it also or alternatively, cares about which unit did the damage. Perhaps triggering it allows the grudgewielder to do as much damage as has been dealt to him, instead of applying his strength score. Perhaps it can even ignore armour. That would be a vexing unit. If mob it to kill it quickly, then you still wind up handing your opponent turn advantage. I guess a better way to deal with it would be to use control tactics to shut it down - pull it in with a Provoker, bind in in Skystriker traps, or push in over the coals in the Great Hall with a Strongarm.

    This makes a lot of sense if true, because in that case you want the unit to take damage in the mid-game, and Shieldwall can help keep it alive once it has, so it would synergize to some extent with the passive ability (the Thrasher could be said to be a similar case... which leaves the backbiter as the odd man out amongst the raiders, as his active will usually put him so far forward, that he's unable to benefit from its passive...unless you're running more than one). If I'm thinking along the right lines, then the Grudgewielder is a potentially lethal archer hunter, and a good soft counter to Warrior rush tactics (as raiders will usually take massive damage from these, but survive).

    As for the Champion, the Shieldbangers are breakers/control-support par excellence. All three revealed excel in taking moves away from your opponent - directly in the case of the Provoker, by moving a unit in the case of the Strongarm, and by making an attack too costly in the case of the Shieldmaster. Now both the new name for the Champion and the original name suggest that it cares about being in a team. A champion is someone who fights on behalf of others, and the shieldwall will fail without strong teamwork. If I had to guess I'd say that the Champion can take attacks/damage on behalf of another unit. I think that this would work something like the Provoker and Warleaders' abilities in that the effect is static, but the range is increased by the ability. For rank 1 the Champion (A) would actually have to be standing next to the unit (B) to activate the ability. When the unit (B) is attacked, it's treated instead as an attack against the Champion, armour and return the favour both applied.

    This would make some sense in line with the speculation above, as it's not a straightforward ability (so would make sense to restrict it from Iver at the start of the game whilst new players learn the ropes). It synergizes well with return the favour, and the control theme of the Shieldbangers. It would also be pretty big news - that ability would turn the metagame on its head. It would work well for Warrior-rush, and brilliantly for protecting archers.

    Edit: Ninjaed by Aleonymous... that extra info on the Shieldwall/Champion seems to support my guess...somewhat.

    Incidentally, whilst we're guessing abilities, I'm pretty sure that the Beserker will be even more of a glass cannon than the Warrior, and that it's passive ability will allow it to attack twice in one turn. I thought I'd made the guess before, but I don't think I posted it... Reason being, on the art linked to beserkers, the beserker wears no armour, and always carries two weapons. The beserker of our history was also a lightly armoured shock troop.

    I'd guess the Spearman's passive is linked to it's reach, or maybe damages units that get too close to it... Say one point of damage to close to it's base, increased in the case of the Spearmaster.
    Last edited by Wordplay; 10-15-2013 at 05:00 AM.

  5. #25
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Sorry for the ninja-ing, Wordplay!

    Concerning the demo unit-types, I does make sense for them to "hide" the champion's true ability if that is somehow related to the story or the development of that particular character (i.e. Iver). Also, perhaps it's possible to switch the class-types of your units within the same base-class, by spending some renown or under particular story plots, e.g. like activating "Birthsign Stones" as in TES series.

    I will comment on your speculations for the unit types:

    • Wardog (WD): Something like a "stun" or a "knock-back" is surely related to this head-butting. I don't know about limiting the use of target's active abilities, it seems a little cruel. However, making the target unable to move, or unable to attack, or (temporarily) damaging his EXertion and thus the WP use, are interesting ideas. I also liked the idea of receiving some damage from the ability-use; it helps balance the unit. If the WD is indeed the highest-STR unit, then giving him an ability that adds to that would be too much...

    • Grudgewielder (GW): I am not sure if the GW's ability will depend on ARM or STR damage suffered. I always think his ability as an "inverse Puncture". On the other hand, if it works that way, it's perhaps the only active ability that scales with other attributes. Note: Most active abilities depend on other attributes but their mechanic is simple, e.g. "Do a regular attack on X with 100% chance and add Y to STR". Here, this Y seems to depend on the current state of the unit... As for keeping track of actually harmed to GW, I believe this is tricky to implement and it also makes the ability useless (or limits it) if that unit died. Finally, I believe that armor-bypass abilities (BF, SI, Tp, BoP/SnB/RoA) are generally OP, so I would suggest that they limit them.

    • Champion (CH): This idea of yours is really interesting -- That you activate it on an ally (or on a radius around you), and every attack targeting an ally inflicts its damage on the CH (?) or the CH lends some of his ARM to the allies (?). I can naturally synergize with RtF too. However, anything close to this does seem quite OP, and quite autowin, as they say. Interesting nonetheless.

    • Beserker (BS?): The double-attack idea fits the lore and concept-art perfectly. It does seem ridiculously powerful though, being able to have the WH's active for a passive! Well, it all depends on the stats too. Also, his extra low ARM would make him a one-time shooter. As a passive, I recall something said about the BS's attack knocking back the enemy, or the attack-STR increasing if you take steps towards your enemy (i.e. start turn away from him).

    • Spearman (SP?): The attack range of 2 tiles is almost certain; don't know if he is unable to attack at range of 1-tile though... That would be interesting! Can't tell what the passive would be, but I'd guess its something like puncture, or like HI but hitting only enemies behind the target. Another idea would be something like RtF, but for the STR, i.e. each time a melee enemy engages and attacks you, they take a 1STR damage. The lore behind that is that they get poken by the spear as they walk up to you. Finally, about possible active abilities, I recall Arnie saying something (not final) about pulling an enemy towards you and sending him back in initiative (like "inverse FA") at the same time:
      08-07, 19:01 Arnie -- We have one Spearman ability slated (not set in stone) to pull a unit towards him then knock the enemy back in initiative 1,2 or 3 places.
    Last edited by Aleonymous; 10-15-2013 at 06:52 AM.

  6. #26
    Factions veteran stoicmom's Avatar
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    Luck is wished to you three amazing devs!!

  7. #27
    Superbacker LoliSauce's Avatar
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    Having the Grudgewielder's ability be based on how much damage he's taken is great. It turns him into a priority target (like armor breakers) that you can't just cripple and ignore for turn disadvantage.

    Also, originally when I hear the name Champion, it makes me think of someone who inspires others to do better, like a classic paladin shining an aura upon his nearby allies. Having him tank damage in place of them does seem extremely fitting for a Shieldbanger though.

    As for the Wardog, I'm not so sure it'll be something as simple as a stun or knockback. Those have already been done, and the stun in particular would be a little too good, considering how much work you have to put into a Skystriker's stun. Diversity has always been a key focus for class design with the Stoic guys (something that I can't praise enough).

    Finally, just to be sure I'm on the same page, the girl from the PAX demo was a Sharpshooter class, right? The "shoot through all enemies in a straight line" ability or something to that effect?

  8. #28
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoliSauce View Post
    Finally, just to be sure I'm on the same page, the girl from the PAX demo was a Sharpshooter class, right? The "shoot through all enemies in a straight line" ability or something to that effect?
    That's her, Loli -- Sharpshooter -- Her Thread the Needle ability does a normal archer STR-attack on all units (enemy and ally?) in a straight line of 5-tile-range from the ShSh with a 100% chance, while adding a 1AB damage afterwards... It will surely require tweaking for Factions, because it's like an in-line Tempest with a pinch of Sundering-Impact! Check it out in this PAX demo video, here and here.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Wordplay's Avatar
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    Wardog (WD): Something like a "stun" or a "knock-back" is surely related to this head-butting. I don't know about limiting the use of target's active abilities, it seems a little cruel. However, making the target unable to move, or unable to attack, or (temporarily) damaging his EXertion and thus the WP use, are interesting ideas. I also liked the idea of receiving some damage from the ability-use; it helps balance the unit. If the WD is indeed the highest-STR unit, then giving him an ability that adds to that would be too much...
    Indeed - if even if these abilities aren't for the Wardog, I would be surprised if we don't see this sort of idea on some units... maybe the mender. I'm not sure if limited actives is too mean, but I do think that it might be considered 'unfun'... and if that's the case it won't be in the build.

    On the Champion, I imagined that you'd designate the ally, and then every attack targeting that ally would instead hit the Champion (probably counting the Champion's armour value), but there could be similar implementations... The quotes that you've found make me wonder though... maybe it works like a reverse Hunter - forcing everyone to attack it. I do think we can't be that far off on the Champion... but I feel like I'm clutching at straws on the Wardog.


    Incidentally, unless I'm much mistaken, we were told that there would be 5 new base classes.... We know of four; Beserker, Mender, Spearman and Landsman. Now we've seen art for male and female menders, so I think that there was some speculation that there might be more than 1 Mender class. However, given the variant art that we've seen, I now think that there's probably only one Mender class, with male and female representatives.

    If I'm right, any ideas on what it might be?

  10. #30
    Superbacker LoliSauce's Avatar
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    Ah, thanks Aleo. I ended up seeing your similar post in the Bowmaster balance thread first and ended up replying there.


    And was it really said that there were going to be 5 new classes? For some reason I thought it was just four.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Wordplay's Avatar
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    Yep, in fact I checked back, and Alex is quoted as saying that in the first post of this thread.

  12. #32
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    I believe the Male & Female Mender are to be separate base-classes

    Stylistically, they look very much alike (robes & staff) but I don't know if their abilities will be very different. Nevertheless, when considering "magical abilities" the number of possible implementations really explodes! Browsing around these forums, or the Steam ones, you can find myriad proposals of Mage/Druid/Witch/Wizard/Sorcerer-like abilities (e.g. elemental attacks: fireballs, lightning, wind-gusts, earth, water or control & command fauna/flaura) and Healer/Cleric-like abilities (e.g. heal, curse, inspire-allies etc). Actually, it makes sense for the Male abilities to be offensive, while the Female ones defensive/passive
    Last edited by Aleonymous; 10-16-2013 at 04:36 AM.

  13. #33
    Superbacker quartex's Avatar
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    Stoic has said in the past that Mender abilities won't be big flashy damage dealing magic abilities (the lightning bolt was an exception - since it looked cool in the trailer). So less like Menders shooting fireballs, and more spells to boosting allies. I think in-combat healing is also unlikely - Stoic has said it would just slow down combat. I am looking forward to the Menders' abilities and think they could be an interesting support class.

  14. #34
    Member Tatski's Avatar
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    I found something on the new website that caught my attention, https://stoicstudio.com/game-overview/ says that "Embark on your epic journey with a variety of characters from 7 different classes" this could mean that we won't be seeing one base class on TBS or one of the base class will branch out to an entirely different class (flavorwise) when promoted. If my assumptions are correct there are 8 base class, Warriors, Shieldbangers, Raiders, Archers, Landsmen, Spearmen, Menders, Berserkers. Perhaps Spearmen belong to Landsmen or Mender base class? What d'you guys think??
    Last edited by Tatski; 11-06-2013 at 12:49 AM.

  15. #35
    Superbacker LoliSauce's Avatar
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    Each base class has a unified gender and general appearance. Spearmen, Landsmen, and Mender have already shown to be completely different sprites, so it's much more likely that the "7 different classes" is probably just an early guess on total that isn't quite accurate anymore.

  16. #36
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    It's a little baffling, this explicit mention of "7" as the exact number of classes To be frank, I was anticipating the "Factions 4" plus five more: Landsman, Speardudes, Menders (male & female) and Varl Beserkers. How this dropped from 9 to 7, I don't know. I have two theories: (1) The male & female Menders are considered as one class, perhaps with no "base unit" -- just promoted sub-classes that share a passive ability. (2) Varl Beserkers might have been dropped, pushed back to Saga#2, or they're just not playable classes, i.e. they appear as enemies or AI-controlled allies only.

    Also, I am not really hoping that the new classes will be as developed as the "Factions 4". That means that I'm not expecting 3-4 subclasses, for all subclasses, to appear in Saga#1 straight off. There's a mention of "over 25 playable characters" in the new website. Only counting the "Factions 4" amounts to 16 characters (counting also the 4th "mystery" subclass per base-class: GW, ShSh, CH & WD), which leaves about 10 characters from the other 3-5 new classes; so it's just 2-3 characters/promoted-class per new base-class.

    Finally, I'd like to note that we got the name of one more promoted-class of the Landsman base-class: the Warden. The character is called Eirik and we can tell he belongs to the Landsman class because of his resemblance of his pose to Rook (minus the horn, bow & quiver etc). From the name, warden, I can speculate that his ability will be something defensive and possibly ally-targeted.

    Last edited by Aleonymous; 11-06-2013 at 08:55 AM.

  17. #37
    Member Tatski's Avatar
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    It would be a shame if they dropped Berserkers, It's nice if they added at least 1 additional Varl base class for variety. I know they've shown separate sprite for landsmen,spear dudes, M/F menders and berserkers. I don't expect all additional class can be promoted to 4 advanced class too. Hopefully that 7 thing is a typo

  18. #38
    Superbacker quartex's Avatar
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    I think the 25 characters is referring to the number of characters in the single-player plot that we will be controlling, (like Rook, Alette, etc.) not the specific amount of different units that are in the game.

    The base units alone will have 5 classes per type (we've seen 4 per type in Factions and I know we're getting one more for each type), so that would be 20 classes, just among the base types. With a bunch of new types coming in, I hope we get a lot more classes to play with.

  19. #39
    Member Tatski's Avatar
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    Well at least we have 2 confirmed upgrade of the landsman, Hunter and Warden, I wonder what the pure upgrade is called, Landmaster? )

  20. #40
    Community Moderator Guğmundr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatski View Post
    Well at least we have 2 confirmed upgrade of the landsman, Hunter and Warden, I wonder what the pure upgrade is called, Landmaster? )
    I don't know, but I'd say that's a good bet! Either that or "Landsmaster". Makes me wonder if there'll be a "Mendmaster"...

    Actually, do we know for sure if there will even be "master" promotions for the new classes? I mean, it would make sense for the trend to continue, but it will be interesting to see whether it does or doesn't.
    Last edited by Guğmundr; 11-06-2013 at 01:46 PM.
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