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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: The Strategy of Ultimate Win

  1. #1
    Junior Member Galactimus's Avatar
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    The Strategy of Ultimate Win

    BACKGROUND
    ~~~~~~~~~~~
    I ended up obtaining Rank #1 on the leader boards the other night (Galactimus_Zero) with 52 wins in a row. I don't have enough time to try and hold such a position so I'll gladly reveal my strategy to the masses. If this post helps the devs balance the game or gives tips to players trying to perfect their own build then I'm glad to be of service!

    Screenshot of first place!
    https://i596.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps403bd7a5.png


    UNITS

    ~~~~~~
    Warhawk x 2 (Clive and Cliff)
    Armor 11
    Strength 16
    Willpower 2
    Exertion 1
    Break 1
    Note: You don't need armor break or high willpower when you have 16 AoE damage + ripple damage to adjacent units.


    Thrasher x 4 (Tic, Tac, Toe, and... Tom!)
    Armor 11
    Strength 12
    Willpower 3
    Exertion 1
    Break 2
    Note: You have to have 2 break and 1 exertion or you'll never break armor fast enough.


    STRATEGY

    ~~~~~~~~~
    The four Thrashers are carefully spaced out on the front line so two of them can't be 1 shotted by enemy Warhawks on the very first turn. 11 Armor is the key as you don't want all those enemies with 12 strength to butcher you without dealing armor damage first. 9 Armor just doesn't cut it on the front lines. The Thrashers main job is to lure enemy Warriors within range of your own Warhawks. They also attack Strength if the enemy unit has 9 or less armor. They attack Armor if the unit has 10 or more Armor (to soften them for a Warhawk attack.) And they use Flail if the enemy armor is already low enough but they don't have enough Strength left to bypass it. Maiming archers is also incredibly easy with four Thrashers advancing (parties with 3 Archers are obliterated.)


    My Warhawks remain 1-2 tiles from the front line and stay out of enemy Warrior range. In the first few turns they avoid taking damage at all costs. They never move ahead of my Thrashers. They are my key to victory. The only unit that poses a serious threat to them are enemy Varls. Everyone else has to break the Warhawks armor first. I only rush my Warhawks into battle if I can maim an enemy Varl or double kill two high Strength units at the same time with a Warhawk Whirlwind. This entire strategy hinges on my Warhawks and Thrashers maiming enemy Warriors before taking too much damage. If an enemy Warrior can use 2 exertion for movement then I have to be extra careful as mine only have 1 exertion. Figure out the enemy Warrior movement range at the very start of battle. Use strategic Thrasher placement if these Warriors can use 2 Exertion.


    I always leave enemy units with 1 HP remaining. Always. I don't care if its a Thrasher or Archer. Some people disagree with me and that's fine. I've even received hate mail for being a proud supporter of the "1HP Maiming Religion." But this strategy obviously works considering my leaderboard position. Making the enemy waste turns with 1HP units is far more beneficial then letting 10HP units beat the life out of you every single turn. I'd rather let a 1HP Thrasher or Archer hit me every so often for 3-4 damage then let that 12 Strength unit continue his rampage every other turn.


    The rest of it boils down to mastering the basics:

    - Knowing what every unit is capable of. The range and quirks of every ability.
    - Outwitting Sky Arrow users. Never move your Warhawk into possible Sky Arrow traps when a high STR unit is in a position to take advantage of your blunder.
    - Perfecting unit placement on different maps. The front lines are CLOSER on some maps then others which can allow enemy Warriors the extra tile they need to rush you on Turn 1.


    COLOR KILLS

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    And to end this super long post with something silly I've even won matches by purchasing the Thrasher and Warhawk alternate colors off of the store. I decked my Warhawks out in the Red outfit and my Thrashers in the Bloodred outfit. These are amazing red outfits with white trim that match each other perfectly. And from the enemies perspective even your banner and unit cursors are red. 90% of the time I started a match with these six color-coordinated melee units someone would say one of the following:

    "I'm actually scared right now. Seriously."
    "That line up is extremely intimidating"
    "Oh this is just great. What stupid matchmaking."
    "Losing to such a stellar color formation isn't really a loss"
    "I don't even know where to start with this match up."
    Etc.

    To which I respond: "Canadians! CHARGE!!"

    A mental victory right off the bat certainly doesn't hurt (^_^)v
    Last edited by Galactimus; 03-04-2013 at 11:43 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Galactimus View Post

    To which I respond: "Canadians! CHARGE!!"

    A mental victory right off the bat certainly doesn't hurt (^_^)v
    Excellent. Also, the rest of the post was very informative too.

  3. #3
    Superbacker quartex's Avatar
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    Very informative post. Is it bad that you can be so effective with only 2 types of units? I'm not sure. I believe that ideally a more diverse team should be able to adapt and beat a less diverse one, but I know there's a lot more to winning than just team composition. Perhaps getting really good with 2 units makes it easier to beat opponents who are trying to balance and figure out how to use 6 different units. I'm not trying to diminish your obvious skill, I'm just curious what this says about the strategy of Factions. Congratulations in 52 wins in a row, that's very impressive.

    P.S. I find it interesting that despite their recent nerf, you found 4 thrashers more effective than 4 backbiters. Do thrashers have better stats, or do you find bloody flail still more effective than backbiting?

  4. #4
    Junior Member Galactimus's Avatar
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    I have never once purchased or used any of the following classes:

    -Backbiter
    -Raidmaster

    -Warleader

    -Provoker
    -Shieldmaster
    -Strongarm

    -Skystriker
    -Bowmaster
    -Siege Archer


    On my very first day I decided to buy a second Warrior for 50 renown (whoops) because I thought It'd be cool to have a lot of Varls in one party. When I realized you could only have two Varls I deleted my Shieldbearer. After a 16 win streak my team looked like this:

    - Warmaster
    - Warmaster
    - Thrasher
    - Thrasher
    - Archer
    - Archer


    After realizing how easy it was to crush Archers by using high Strength / Armor units I deleted my Archers for two more Thrashers. I then purchased the color pack for my Warmasters and even though the Blacksmith color "appears" red in the selection screen its actually a light brown in battle. I immediately sent my Warmasters to the barracks to rot for their color insubordination. I then decided to recruit two Warhawks simply because they could sport an amazing red color. And that is how my team was built (^_^)v


    I learned all of the class abilities by simply playing against them. I honestly don't know if Backbiters are better then Thrashers. To be honest I kind of like remaining stationary while using Bloody Flail as my Thrashers are usually placed in strategic locations - protecting my Warhawks, trapping enemy Varls, giving Shield Walls bonuses etc. And well.. Thrashers and Warhawks just look so damn cool together when they sport the color red!!


    The Canadian Army of Awesome:
    https://i596.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps8c71c373.png


    As you can see my Thrashers take all the damage. Warhawks come in when the enemy Varls are ready to be neutered. Enemy has to move tons of units with only 1-3 Strength remaining. He never gets a chance to use his heavy hitters:
    https://i596.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps4105a495.png


    His 1 HP Archers and Thrashers don't even tickle. Another completely dominated match. Sometimes I don't even lose a unit. 20 turns were wasted because he had obsolete units to move around:
    https://i596.photobucket.com/albums/t...psc8b80c0b.png
    Last edited by Galactimus; 03-05-2013 at 02:11 AM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member sweetjer's Avatar
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    I also choose units based off color coordination. That said, the build you picked is probably my least favorite to play against. When I first started my friend refused to utilize any other team than the one you have here (except it was pre-lasthitnerf, pre-12 str, so he put everything in armor and relied off the guaranteed direct damage that thrasher used to have/still has to some extent). Reading this gave me flashbacks, and now I'm rocking back and forth in the shower crying and trying to wash away the memories of frustration and defeat.
    Last edited by sweetjer; 03-05-2013 at 03:24 AM.
    that which does not kill you often leaves you handicapped

  6. #6
    Backer Zahar's Avatar
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    I think this kind of radical build is actually good to the game.

    My favorite build in the beta was 4 BBs and 2 WHs.

    If people start using builds like this, shield varls will actually become useful, etc. Then archers will become more important. And the metagame will start to shape.
    Alea Jacta Est

    Banner by StandSure - thanks a lot!

  7. #7
    Senior Member sweetjer's Avatar
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    I don't think pure thrasher builds should be removed from the game necessarily (though I would probably support a cap to 3 rank1's of the same type in any case, for the sake of variety), but I think they should nerf armor on raiders across the board to make them more manageable if they break shield wall. As it stands, I rarely put my TH in formation until the endgame when he's hobbled, but 4 TH can be high armor w/ shield wall, high str threat, and endgame match-changers. I've said all along that I don't think TH utility should be reduced, just their survivability. I kind of feel bad posting balance opinions in this build thread, but it's kind of the perfect place for it. Very nice build thread, btw, I hope we see more of these write-ups from you Galacticus.
    Last edited by sweetjer; 03-05-2013 at 03:29 AM.
    that which does not kill you often leaves you handicapped

  8. #8
    Superbacker piotras's Avatar
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    Nice name for the thread

    Congrats and thanks for sharing Galacticus! Hopefully we can have similar builds in game, however I do hope that this will be used as a case study by Stoic to look more closely at 4 BBs/THs builds.

  9. #9
    Junior Member Lekkit's Avatar
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    Proud to be one of your 52 wins.

    As I said when I faced this. I really think it's a cool build. I don't think it's invincible, nor overpowered. I do think this is a really solid build that requires skill to conquer, though. And the better the player fielding it, the harder it will be. When friend challenges are available, I'll be happy to play people using this build to see if it can be beaten.

  10. #10
    Superbacker piotras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lekkit View Post
    Proud to be one of your 52 wins.

    As I said when I faced this. I really think it's a cool build. I don't think it's invincible, nor overpowered. I do think this is a really solid build that requires skill to conquer, though. And the better the player fielding it, the harder it will be. When friend challenges are available, I'll be happy to play people using this build to see if it can be beaten.
    I've beaten builds like that before, the problem from the beginning of beta is that it makes mediocre players do very well and in the hands of good players it leads to 50+ win streaks

  11. #11
    Junior Member Phantom's Avatar
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    First place eh? Well done. Played you twice, a bit sad that neither of them we're really good matches. Oh well, I'm sure we'll have a solid rubber match at some point.

  12. #12
    Junior Member djangoc's Avatar
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    Are you finding that you end up finishing guys off using the Thrasher ability or not? If not, 4 BB is way better and useful. It also makes going up against archer teams even easier with BBs.

  13. #13
    Junior Member Galactimus's Avatar
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    Compare both units placed into a similar situation:
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    You're up against a Shieldmaster with 10 Armor and 1 Strength. Your unit has 1 Armor and 1 Strength left. The Shieldmaster is going to kill you with his 100% Chance to hit next turn. Your own units chance to hit with a regular attack this turn is a pitiful 10%.


    A) Your unit is a Backbiter. To increase your chances of survival you decide to use Run Through. You deal 2 armor damage with the first hit which gives your final strike a 30% chance to hit. (8 Armor versus your 1 Strength.) You've increased your odds but that Shieldmaster is going to beat you 7 out of 10 times.


    B) Your unit is a Thrasher. His ability has 100% Accuracy with his first three swings and a 50% chance to hit Strength with each. Therefore you have an 87.5% chance to finish off the Shieldmaster this turn using Bloody Flail (1 - 0.50^3 = 0.875). And that's NOT including the Thrashers fourth swing. If that swing also hits then you have a 93.75% chance to win. You're going to beat that Shieldmaster almost every single time.


    Therefore: The Backbiter is not ALWAYS a better choice; especially when your unit is maimed. Maybe Backbiters are better overall in more situations. Maybe I've inadvertently given myself a Thrasher handicap. I don't really know. But Thrashers are very strong in the end game. In my strategy that's very important; as my Thrashers are a bloody mess by the time my Warhawks arrive yet they're still able to provide solid damage output at this stage.
    Last edited by Galactimus; 03-05-2013 at 07:44 PM.

  14. #14
    The nasty thing about multiple thrashers (and WHs in the back) is that maiming/hobbling the thrashers isnt really effective.
    Usually you can kill that one thrasher, because there are still other units to be maimed and turn advantage stays in control. But with this... These canadian vikings are intimidating. Guess you must find a way to block and hobble both WHs before they can start their killing spree.

  15. #15
    Junior Member djangoc's Avatar
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    You have to focus fire every thrasher until a WH comes into range and focus it. Very cool strategy.

  16. #16
    This build has been around since early beta and it is nasty as hell, the fact that it's still this good even after the big thrasher nerf(s) is a testament to that.

    That said just like in beta people will eventually wisen up to how to fight it, it's not unbeatable, a well-played high-exertion team in particular would give your build a run for its money, but in the meantime enjoy your stomps :P

  17. #17
    Nicely done. I agree that this build is nasty but not unbeatable. High exertion archers and raiders should be able to get at your 1 exertion warhawks before they can do a full strength hit, and shieldbangers are an effective counter for your thrashers.

    I'm less impressed by the 52 win streak than I am by the elo ranking- In my experience as a reasonably good player, only about 1 in 20 games are really competitive right now- there are a lot players out there who are still figuring out how to play. Also, a build with six melee units will tend to shred a build with 2 archers and four melee... I think that most new players don't realize how hard/important it is to protect archers against a melee heavy build. There is an excess of 2 archer builds currently, because of the units that Stoic gives you when you start: New players are learning to use 2 archers and to fight against 2 archers... they have a tough time when an opponent mixes it up.

  18.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #18
    Creative Director Alex's Avatar
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    Thanks Galactimus! We've seen a bunch of builds like this one (the other most popular replaces thrashers with backbiters and warhawks with warmasters). We've also seen both tournament winners so far running balanced teams. The only thing I haven't seen much is archer-heavy teams being competitively effective, and though that's a shame it may also be a good thing, because if everyone played archer-heavy teams I could see it being downright obnoxious. All in all, it sounds like you've found a good strategy and it's working for you. Cheers!

  19. #19
    I am not a good player, I am still learning the game, but I've been crushing much more technicallly skilled players with this tactic. It's a noobie cannon, for certain.

  20. #20
    Expounding on what I like about it..

    1) I love the aggressive pressure you put on the other team. sending in the thrashers, always pushing them up, while having the warhawks lurking in the wings, is very stressful on the other team.

    2) I think the warhawks are far superior to warmasters. I don't think the extra point of health is worth the nightmare you cause for your opponents positioning. The spin requires opponents to constantly worry about positioning against them, and I think the benefit of that, given the short amount of time you have to act, is worth it. If they make a mistake, the game is over. If they don't, they are using mental resources on positioning and have a tactical disadvantage.

    3) Conversely, I love not having to worry about archer positioning, and constantly having to defend them. As someone new to the game, and this kind of game in general, it is very difficult for me to get maximum out of archer units, and trying to take care of them takes up mental energy. Perhaps once I'm more used to the game, I will be able to use them effectively, but as of now, 2/2 seems like a liability compared to 4 raider unit

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