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  1. #1
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    Suggested Tournament Format

    Hi all! We concluded our first full length tournament and crowned the second ever tournament Champion!

    Let it be known, at the end of beta Tirean the Klutz was awarded the honor of being placed on the first tournament banner, by virtue of ending the beta at #1. Conundrum emerged as the first tournament winner ever during the headstart week trial tournament. and balnoisi emerged victorious in the first full tournament format held, with an astounding and epic clean record!

    Now, with the first tournament over, I would just like to make a suggestion based on some thoughts and observations, see below!

    I noticed something odd about the tournament. The tourney goes on for 5 days Wednesday-Sunday, with rest days Mon-Tuesday. I just noticed though, that the tournament start period and the 5 game per day quota aren't synced up.

    Tirean noticed the games refresh at 18:00 GMT, as of the time I'm writing this email (12:20 GMT) there's 17 hours and 40 min left. In 5 hours and 40 min 5 games will refresh, to reach the 25 games over 5 days quota. 17 hours and 40 min - 5 and 40 min means people only have half a day, 12 hours, to complete the last 5 games, rather than a full 24 hrs. Now 12 hours may seem long, but it's a tiny window when people are coming from different time zones.

    First, I am wondering if this is intended.

    Second, I would like to suggest, whether this is intended or not, if we could revise the tournament format to accommodate any and all player timezone in the best way possible by doing the following:

    1. Change the tournament end day to Saturday (-GMT). This way people on -GMT end on Saturday, while people on +GMT end on Sunday, thereby giving everyone regardless of timezone the chance to catch up on games on the very last day; rather than play Elo racing with the last 12 hours.

    2. Rather than play 25 games over 5 days, what if people could play 25 games over 6 days (but still 5 games are allowed per day until 25 is reached), with 1 day break. So that effectively, the schedule would become (for -GMT) Monday-Saturday Tourney, with a break on Sunday. This way, the last day is only used for catch up games, so whether you're +or- GMT you have 1 day space to do catch-up. Effectively, Americans would finish their tourney Friday and Sat, Asian and Aussies would finish their tourney Sat and Sunday.
    What do you guys think?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Jorgensager's Avatar
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    I think it sounds logical and would maybe give me enough time to participate in tourneys...

    I approve

  3. #3
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    I agree about the first part. In my UTC+3 time zone I have one evening to finish whatever number of my games is, cause the tournament ends at Monday, UTC+3 9:00. And as you'd think, it's not that great to play at monday morning.
    Nothing to tell for or against the second part.

    I do think though that some rehauling should be made concerning the tournament mechanic itself. There were general complaints that you can play the same opponent several times (as for example Tirean played versus someone 4 times in 6 games). So I'd suggest "no rematches during Tournament" modification, or at least not more than one rematch. That will diversify tournament experience a bit.
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  4. #4
    Backer balnoisi's Avatar
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    i'll be repeating myself, have not found a good reason to think otherwise :

    this game can be played by users all over the globe, so their own circumstances can be as random as imagined. still i'd say for the vast majority there is more time to spend playing this game during weekend days.

    in my opinion 5 games a day is a little excessive during weekdays, even if i know lots of people can find out the time to play them theres surely even more than cannot.

    i'd reduce the number of tournament games per weekday to 4. and increase this number during weekend to 5 but changing the mechanic and allowing both saturday and sunday to be considered as a unit, so there would be 10 games to play in 48 hours without splitting them. both sides of the planet will have most of the weekend to play those as they see fit.

    tuesday to friday, 4 days, 4 games per day = 16 games. + saturday and sunday, 48 hours, 10 games.
    a total of 26 games in 6 days.


    also, about rematches, personally i've faced a couple contenders twice and thought it was alright (but three times or even four sounds too much), the fact you can recover those lost points and strike revenge adds some spice to the game. i'd vote for a maximum of 1 rematch. sometimes there could be no other opponent available for a period of time, and you just have to play that last match with someone.

  5. #5
    At the start of my tournament run last week I played 1 guy 4 times in a row. It wasn't fun for me and I bet it wasn't fun for him. If it was possible to avoid situations like this id much appreciate it

  6. #6
    Agree with balnoisi, here. Five games a day is a lot, especially to keep up for an entire week. 4 a day on weekdays seems considerably more feasible.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mad Fool View Post
    Agree with balnoisi, here. Five games a day is a lot, especially to keep up for an entire week. 4 a day on weekdays seems considerably more feasible.
    Agreed. I enter tourneys for the skilled opponents, but have given up any hope of playing the full number of games (even now that the seas are stable). It would be nice to see a 4- or even 3-game limit.

  8. #8
    Junior Member djangoc's Avatar
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    Needs to be tweaked for sure. Three 20 minute games seems reasonable for a game a day. Even a casual player would most likely spend 1 hour a day playing, on average.

  9. #9
    Junior Member Chaokel's Avatar
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    I think it sounds perfect, staying up to 2am when it goes live and playing a bunch probably isn't sustainable for me. I would love to see a system like this.

  10. #10
    Yeah, 48 hours of catch-up gets my vote. On two unrelated notes....

    1) Fewer than 20 people actually played all their games last time. Why is that?

    2) Does no one else think ELO is a poor way of determining a winner here? For one thing, it makes the order in which you gain your victories matter, which is undesirable...It's hard to think of a coherent alternative, however.

  11. #11
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franknarf View Post
    1) Fewer than 20 people actually played all their games last time. Why is that?
    I would say it's rather to not being able to catch up with top-10, not even top3. I've played 20 games cause my last 5 ones
    • were rather pointless in terms of the tournament itself (I was around 50th at that time)
    • were pointless in terms of rankings (they do not affect overal rankings) and renown (cause I had more chances to get tougher opponent in tournament rather than in versus) and
    • can't be played simply cause it was sunday 21:00 when I've got them, I had a busy evening and couldn't spent a lot of night playing Factions because of work next day
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  12. #12
    Superbacker gripho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by netnazgul View Post
    I would say it's rather to not being able to catch up with top-10, not even top3. I've played 20 games cause my last 5 ones
    • were rather pointless in terms of the tournament itself (I was around 50th at that time)
    • were pointless in terms of rankings (they do not affect overal rankings) and renown (cause I had more chances to get tougher opponent in tournament rather than in versus) and
    • can't be played simply cause it was sunday 21:00 when I've got them, I had a busy evening and couldn't spent a lot of night playing Factions because of work next day
    As regards your second point, since the latest build tournament games do count on global rankings.

    I'd like to wait for the end of this tournament to get a picture of how many people play the full 25 games, but for the moment I'm also in favor of extending time to play the last games and/or reducing the number of games.

  13. #13
    Junior Member Chaokel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franknarf View Post
    1) Fewer than 20 people actually played all their games last time. Why is that?
    Server problems on the final half day. I was ready to play my games, and hung around for a couple hours, but it just got to late for me so i ended up sleeping and missing out on them all. I was not a fan of adding 5 games more for half the time. There will always be people who can't play during those 11 hours and are forced to miss out.

  14. #14
    I would probably have played 15 games or so without server errors; servers knocked it down to 8.

  15. #15
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    As the tournament was delayed this week, my last 5 games are to be played in monday, which is impossible obviously
    If you don't know where to put it - put it in the pillage

    Steelhammer Tribune issues collected here
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  16. #16
    +1 for another format!

    The last tourney was the first I played and as I explained in another thread I was very surprised yesterday that it was possible to play more than 20 games...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodaddict View Post
    Hi,

    Sorry if this was explained somewhere else already, but I did not find it: How many games can I play in one tourney? Or better: When can I play my last 5 games?
    Yesterday at ~8pm CET I had 20 battles and was told that there is none left. With ~12h left till the end of the tourney (do not know how many hours it was exactly, but it was definitely less than 24h and ended at some time early in the morning my time) I assumed that I reached the maximum, but now I see a lot of people with 25 games and I am wondering when the time starts to play these last 5 battles?

    Thanks in advance,
    Bloodaddict
    I was pointed to this thread, so now I know that it was probably not normal that the last 5 games started so late, but like for netnazgulz, it was not possible to me to play theses last 5 battles, so I was thinking already if it makes even sense to me to compete in future tourneys.
    And even without the the server delays of this tourney I don't like the setup very much! As I understood it, the timer for the last 5 battles starts at 6pm GMT and runs for 12 hours, right? So for me (and probably others in Europe) this leaves basically three options for the next tourney (if the setup will not be changed):

    • Tell my family that Sunday evening is no family time anymore since I have to play (not very likely...)
    • Compete knowing in advance that I will not make it to the Top10 with just 20/25 games (Even less likely, since I like to compete, but don't like losing so much... )
    • Ignore the tourney (Probably most likely even if I don't like it... I guess this would be the beginning of the end of this game for me especially considering thoughts in another thread about making tourney matches the only ranked matches.)


    Bottom line:
    • Another +1 for a new schedule for the tourney!
    • +1 for adding a timer that indicates when I can play the next battles in the tourney

  17. #17
    Honestly I do not like the tourney format the way it is and most likely will never join one. Why?

    - I do not think the prize pool is worth it since you need to pay renown to enter. So the current format caters to top end players only. If you are an average or below player it is simply a waste of renown to enter.

    Instead of having one giant week long tourney you could have several tourneys that take place over a few hours and be done. They could be at various times to target various time zones. You could have several formats:
    - single elimination
    - double elimination
    - swiss


    Make each tourney a certain size. Say 30-50 players only. Then have several a week. On weekends you could have a few a day. Make it so if you place in the top end of the (say 1-3) tourney you could not play another one for x amount of time. Like 48 hours. This promotes more players to play and allows for more variety of winners. It is not about avoiding the top players, playing opponent no where near your skill, spamming games, etc...

    Since all players that signed up for the tourney would be online already there is no need to wait for matches. There would be a timer, then the 1st round would start when the tourney is full. All bgs would be the same rank. You would get a random opponent for your 1st match then after that would be paired up according to the tourney style and elo. A standard bracket tourney. Prizes could then be better set based on the number of people in the tourney. You could have different entry fees as well based on the prizes given. For example for a 50 person tourney I would pay at least 10 places. Prizes would be renown of course.

  18. #18
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    ? The main point of the tourney was never to earn renown to begin with. People earn renown just fine outside of the tourney and you would never see sufficient incentive, since it's a given that only top players would ever win tournament (it's the peak of competition, obviously).

    The point of tournament was to have a high level setting for competition and a space for those wanting to develop themselves competitively.

    The shorter events you suggest are interesting though, but would require some work getting into the game, and also managing the synchronicity of it as well as upkeep. Someone has to put the tourney up after all.
    Last edited by raven2134; 03-12-2013 at 06:36 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    ? The main point of the tourney was never to earn renown to begin with. People earn renown just fine outside of the tourney and you would never see sufficient incentive, since it's a given that only top players would ever win tournament (it's the peak of competition, obviously).

    The point of tournament was to have a high level setting for competition and a space for those wanting to develop themselves competitively.

    The shorter events you suggest are interesting though, but would require some work getting into the game, and also managing the synchronicity of it as well as upkeep. Someone has to put the tourney up after all.

    The point isn't to earn renown I know, but there should be sufficient rewards to encourage players to play. I mean that is the only reason people spend renown to enter. To win prizes. Without sufficient prizes it is kind of a waste of time is it not? To give you an analogy. That would be like if the world series of poker only paid out 3 spots. You would see its attendance drop from thousands to a small handfull. Same type of theory. It takes skill and luck to win. Tourney payouts should at least scale with how many people enter. Most big tourneys are that way. The whole reason to have a tourney is to get people to compete correct? Right now you make it worthless for 95% of the player base to consider trying it out at all. Is that what you really want? If so why even bother with them at all?

    On the smaller scale tourneys I think those would be great for the game. More people would play and want to be competitive (not a bad thing right?).

    Having a mode (that doesn't pay out anything) for people to organize their own tourneys would be fun and is a common game mode as well.

  20. #20
    Member Alejandro Mackgyver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    The shorter events you suggest are interesting though, but would require some work getting into the game, and also managing the synchronicity of it as well as upkeep. Someone has to put the tourney up after all.
    Seeing as we're spit balling here on the grounds of small tournaments; maybe something between your Friends on your friends list. An extra option on the 'challenge a friend' playlist perhaps?

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