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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Why nerf Backbiters?

  1. #1

    Why nerf Backbiters?

    Backbiters have had their Strength max reduced to 10 in the latest update.

    They just went from "unit that has a niche because you can threaten and harm people's high Strength and moderate Armor guys and maybe kill low-armor archers" to "not a threat to anyone and clearly-worst raider unit now, even behind the rather silly Raidmaster."

    I guess it's all Thrashers now and for all time?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Shiri's Avatar
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    I understand the general thrust behind the strength nerf, although I think it'll seriously damage their ability to be "archer killers" as intended.

    But why buff their max willpower to 13? Is anyone likely to try that build ever?

    EDIT: Ok, I haven't tested yet so it's possible this will go away entirely when I get the chance to play with it, but I am more puzzled about this as I think about it. Stoic was saying in chat that backbiters should be hit and run, not tanks, and that's why they were considering lowering max armour to 11 from 12. I can understand not take that route, but now their hit and run is dramatically nerfed in effectiveness ESPECIALLY if they take stray strength damage from stuff like coals, heavy impact, bloody flail, overhits, etc., whereas their tankiness is still intact and in fact seems like a more reliable direction to take them now?
    Last edited by Shiri; 03-14-2013 at 07:35 PM.

  3. #3
    Superbacker piotras's Avatar
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    I was expecting changes that involve his max armour or armour-break dependence of his skill, but I haven't played yet to see how it affects the game so I can't judge the decision yet.

    Stoic mentioned that the intention behind BB was to be armour breakers and right now with no investment to break they can potentially run through 4 units dealing 8 armour break AND also attack - so there is a niche.

    Why nerf BBs? Well, if spected the very lame way of 12/12 + shieldwall stacking they are tough as hell AND could armour break before their attack with no investment to armour break itself.

    If the current raiders aren't what you're looking for (like me) than there's another one coming and spearmen will be joining our ranks so lots of room for melee tactics.

  4. #4
    Junior Member van's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazthefirst View Post
    rather silly Raidmaster.
    How dare you! <3 Raidmasters, best unit in the game.

    It will all get more balanced once higher ranks will be added for every unit. The potential of running through several units (with wp cost 3) justifies the will power buff.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Shiri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by van View Post
    How dare you! <3 Raidmasters, best unit in the game.

    It will all get more balanced once higher ranks will be added for every unit. The potential of running through several units (with wp cost 3) justifies the will power buff.
    It's a MAX willpower buff though, not a MIN willpower buff. They still start with 4 like before. Actually getting to that cap leaves you with stats of 5/8/13/2/1 (well, you don't have to put the exertion I guess, but something like that.) Bizarre.

  6. #6
    Junior Member van's Avatar
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    Ah, you're right Shiri, just took a quick peek at them. I thought the nerf was affecting min not max wp. Quite bizzare indeed.

  7. #7
    Superbacker piotras's Avatar
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    well, the game needs to be balanced somehow, if you subtract from one place you need to balance somewhere else and WP seems to be the dump-stat for balance-issues

  8. #8
    Well, any nerf will do in a storm, I say. I still like the BBs even now that their ability is less about ganking archers on their first hit. I've got two BBs and no third raider right now.

  9. #9
    Junior Member pix's Avatar
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    They did need a nerf... personally I thought their imbalance was in their skill, which is far too good for 1 WP. This indirectly nerfs the skill though, since they don't maim so often when using it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by piotras View Post
    I was expecting changes that involve his max armour or armour-break dependence of his skill, but I haven't played yet to see how it affects the game so I can't judge the decision yet.

    Stoic mentioned that the intention behind BB was to be armour breakers and right now with no investment to break they can potentially run through 4 units dealing 8 armour break AND also attack - so there is a niche.

    Why nerf BBs? Well, if spected the very lame way of 12/12 + shieldwall stacking they are tough as hell AND could armour break before their attack with no investment to armour break itself.

    If the current raiders aren't what you're looking for (like me) than there's another one coming and spearmen will be joining our ranks so lots of room for melee tactics.
    Running through four units is not something that will happen even if you could afford the three Willpower. With only six units, the chances of four being lined up, none of them being giants, your Will at three or higher, and your Backbiters in range is a black swan event.

    Even running through two units was not something that happened every match.

    I guess they'll be a placeholder unit until new units show up. I seriously don't respect the plans for upgraded Trashers enough to get the kills on them and Raidermasters are still silly (spend Willpower to not do things in the hopes of being in a good position after everyone has moved.....lame).

  11. #11
    Junior Member eAZy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazthefirst View Post
    Running through four units is not something that will happen even if you could afford the three Willpower. With only six units, the chances of four being lined up, none of them being giants, your Will at three or higher, and your Backbiters in range is a black swan event.

    Even running through two units was not something that happened every match.

    I guess they'll be a placeholder unit until new units show up. I seriously don't respect the plans for upgraded Trashers enough to get the kills on them and Raidermasters are still silly (spend Willpower to not do things in the hopes of being in a good position after everyone has moved.....lame).
    There are so many things wrong with every statement you make that I don't know where to begin. Please stop and think before posting again.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazthefirst View Post
    Running through four units is not something that will happen even if you could afford the three Willpower. With only six units, the chances of four being lined up, none of them being giants, your Will at three or higher, and your Backbiters in range is a black swan event.

    Even running through two units was not something that happened every match.

    I guess they'll be a placeholder unit until new units show up. I seriously don't respect the plans for upgraded Trashers enough to get the kills on them and Raidermasters are still silly (spend Willpower to not do things in the hopes of being in a good position after everyone has moved.....lame).
    In fairness, the Raidmaster's ability is often pretty good at restricting the movement of the Varls if you can use him properly.

  13. #13
    Yeah, I don't see how the RM's ability could be useful. Then again, I said that about the latest iteration of Slag 'n' Burn, too.

  14. #14
    Member Tatski's Avatar
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    I've always thought of the Raidmaster as a disruptive unit. For me his main purpose is to block enemy movement. A well played RM can be pretty annoying!
    BBs nerf was alright.. 12 power plus his run through is pretty scary on higher ranks..
    Last edited by Tatski; 03-15-2013 at 01:16 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by eAZy View Post
    There are so many things wrong with every statement you make that I don't know where to begin. Please stop and think before posting again.
    Claiming there is something wrong with my position without actually backing it up makes me think that you don't have valid opinions that should be respected.

    Join the conversation! It's why forums were invented! :P
    Last edited by Kazthefirst; 03-15-2013 at 12:15 AM.

  16. #16
    Member Tatski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazthefirst View Post
    Claiming there is something wrong with my position without actually backing it up makes me think that you don't have valid opinions that should be respected.

    Join the conversation! It's why forums were invented! :P
    While I never comment at eAZy's tone. I kinda agree. I think the BBs nerf is justifiable. The BB with 12 str and 4 tile runthrough can be devastating... It just gives the BB more mobility... On BBs turn he can walk on blue tiles plus 5 Tiles if you can runthrough the 4th tile. I think the 3 WP is worth it even if only one unit is caught and the more units caught with runthrough the better! Yes it maybe a little costly at 3 wp but you can still cover more ground than normal movement with 3 exertion.. The BB has potential to reach any unit on his turn.. I think its the main reason why they nerf his str...
    Last edited by Tatski; 03-15-2013 at 01:12 AM.

  17. #17
    Raidmasters are arguably my favorite unit, but they need to work in pairs. (Come to think of it, I should rename mine accordingly.)

    Get two RM's side-by-side with activated skills, and their either (1) invincible or (2) cost so much WP for an opponent to attack them that I actually want them to be attacked. Then one tears an archer's armor to shreds, and the other does the same with limbs. (Or they wear down a varl together, &c.)

  18. #18
    Superbacker piotras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazthefirst View Post
    Running through four units is not something that will happen even if you could afford the three Willpower. With only six units, the chances of four being lined up, none of them being giants, your Will at three or higher, and your Backbiters in range is a black swan event.

    Even running through two units was not something that happened every match.
    And now running through 2 or 3 units will not only be a common situation, but similarly to SRM, your every plan of formation will have to be done with the BBs special in mind - no more hiding with your archers just behind the Varls or careless stacking that shieldwall with your raiders. BB will start working as intended - the best armour breakers among the Raiders and archer harrasers rather than instant killers. Sure, he won't be better at taking large chunks of armour from a single unit, but he will be the most cost-efficient armour breaker.

    I know it's sad that BB isn't a one-shot archer killer or self-sufficient anymore, you'll just have to make him work in concert with other units, you know, that lame and smartass thing... tictacs? No wait.. tactics!

  19. #19
    Senior Member Yellow's Avatar
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    i quote myself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Yellow View Post
    Duno what's the hugge deal people is making about the BBs, at 10 strength 10 defence they are fine, i've been using 1-2 in all my builds since i started playing, and never once used a 12 strength one, so far it worked as fine as they should...

    They are far from useless as people seems to be claiming... if u where used to have only 12 strength BBs then i can see why u complain as it would be like taking away ur AK-47 and giving u a sword in stead, but hey we are in a viking game, the AK-47 don't belongs here...
    In other words, stop talking no-sence and whining becouse they got nerfted, they still do their job as any other raider unit... and those who said raidmasters are useless clearly have no clue of what they talking about..
    Last edited by Yellow; 03-15-2013 at 07:47 AM.

  20. #20
    Just on the RM thing, my favourite raider by far personally.
    I use them to zone control and block whilst also being able to break when required.
    Most folks ignore them or maim them which is fine by me as they are not there for damage.
    Because everyone's play style is different not everyone appreciates Rms position in the game but I love them!
    Personally I would not use a BB or thrasher that often at all, my general build does not include either currently. However a 4 sq run through with 2 break per hit and then the normal damage would be seriously op compared to other current rank 3 abilities without this health adjustment.

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