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Thread: About tournament rewards

  1. #1
    Senior Member Butters's Avatar
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    About tournament rewards

    Can we talk about the rewards for winning the tournament ?

    1. Better rewards for the winners
    Some renown (and not a lot of it either) as a reward for being the very best player around is underwhelming IMHO. Someone experienced enough to win a tournament most likely has plenty of renown handy already. Of course most tournament players are in to get their names on the board, but some other form of reward would be nice.
    How about some unit skins (palette swaps) that are rewarded to tournament winners exclusively ? (All credit goes to Deadeye @ in-game chat for the good idea). Or maybe some kind of badge that could appear on your banner. Or just an exclusive banner.

    2. Rewards for more people
    Having rewards for the top3 and nothing for the rest is kind of depressing for us non-godly folks. Entering the tournament is assured to be a net loss for like 99% of players. How about a smaller reward (maybe renown !) for ranks up to maybe 10 ? That would motivate me a lot more to play in the tournament (in my simple gamer mind, not top 3 = no reward = complete loss = why bother?).

  2. #2
    Junior Member Chopsticks's Avatar
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    Agree on all points. It's also much harder to rank in the top 3 and stay there given how you simply may be given matches that are much below your ELO, not allowing you to get the ELO you need to win.

  3. #3
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    Agreed for special prize to winner and more renown to the top finishers.
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  4. #4
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    I dunno guys, I mean sure more rewards/better rewards could be better? But couldn't this also snowball quickly from the feeling that everyone needs to win something or come out with something from being in the tournament? (I've sorta been feeling this has been more the motivation behind this request).

    At the very least I'd choose 1 of the 2, not both. Cos if you give the top winner better rewards, more people will feel out of the loop (since only 3 people will occupy the winner's podium), if you give more rewards, you can't make them "better" or people will feel like they all have the same thing and it isn't special.

    I always thought the idea of having your banner plastered for all to see as the current champion (and being remembered for quite a while on the tourney board as champion) was already a huge deal .

  5. #5
    It could be set up such that the number of awards scaled to the number of people involved (This was suggested last time this thread came up). Like the top 5% of players, which could be 2 people or it could be 50, get a scaled renown reward, but the top 3 get a bronze/silver/gold border for their crest(Maybe just for the week?), or something like that.

    I was thinking a crest border so you don't have to give up your cool design to show it.

  6. #6
    Tournaments are more about the prestige of winning I feel. You gain enough renown from just playing the 25 tournament games.

    I feel instead of thinking "I should get rewarded for coming 4th" you should be thinking "how do I get into the top 3 and stay there?"

  7. #7
    Yeah, I have no issues with the current structure, I'm just spitballing ideas.

  8. #8
    As I stated before in my other posts I agree with this.

    Before we talk about better rewards though we need a better tourney system. The current system seems "thrown on" without much thought put into it imo.

    As it stands right now the current system is not a very good one as it is manipulatable by the players, which it should not be. You simply play x amount of games. Not against similar skilled opponents, or even against different opponents all the time. You just play X games a day and hope you win. If I am correct there is no limit to the amount of times you can play against the same player except the total amount of games allowed. I have never seen this in any tourney format. Technically you and a friend could easily manipulate this. By being on together and que at the same time. You will most likely play each other. Then you let your friend win. Bam easy elo. Now I doubt this is happening, but the fact that it could means the system needs to change. If you lose once well you might as well just give up as the people running the OP builds or that have weaker players on when they are on will win. Not the high skilled player necessarily.

    It is not about mostly skill, skilled opponents and a little bit of luck, like a tourney should be. It is about manipulating the times that you are on and spamming games. If I can take 2 minutes and look at the system and find an easy way to exploit it I am sure someone who is a better player already has. So before we talk about the rewards we need to fix the system imo.
    Last edited by Vexbane; 03-18-2013 at 11:37 AM.

  9. #9
    Junior Member Chopsticks's Avatar
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    I still think there's a glaring problem w/ the way the tournament is run. You simply may not be able to get high ELO opponents, meaning you only get 1-2 ELO per game. When you only have 25 games you can play this becomes a problem. You get people (like myself) who are of middling skill but managed to get into and stay in the top 3 slots by stomping low ELO opponents. If I hadn't lost to Tirean, I could have feasibly secured one of the top 3 slots simply by beating much weaker opponents. In fact only 2 of my 25 matches were with people ranked in the top 20.
    Last edited by Chopsticks; 03-18-2013 at 11:49 AM.

  10. #10
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    Guys, chill. There's a history to why the tournament format is like this.

    It was either having something simple and workable (but not perfect) like our current tourney. Or no tourney at all. This feature has 0 to do with the single player and Stoic introduced it for the multi-player only because it was a great idea.

    I know there are better formats and tighter ways to run and configure the tourney (there will be a fix for the rematching thing too btw), but for the mean time, there isn't time or manpower on Stoic's side to get this into starcraft level e-sport tournament.

    The suggestions are very much welcome though, just take note this will probably be focused on once Stoic can shift attention from the single player to Factions again.

    Afterall, we have a workable/working system, yes, all that's really left are the finishing touches .

  11. #11
    Junior Member Chopsticks's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's still a great game, I don't mean to complain too much. But you can see why people would want to increased reward tiers for players given the current system.

  12. #12
    I'm glad you brought up Stoic's perspective on tournaments, Raven. Managing expectations is important when a game is so new, and especially when single player is the primary focus of the development team. However, friendly and intelligent discussions on every aspect of the game are useful for both the community and the team, whether or not the problems are examined or solutions are used in the game itself. I believe the general community truly enjoys playing The Banner Saga and understand that these discussions are simply to help make a great game even better, however harsh some of the criticisms may be. Cheers to Stoic and yourself for developing such a great game and community! I'm certain that Stoic will try their best to make an optimal and rewarding tournament and ranking system once they have the time to focus on multiplayer.

    I've had similar issues with the tournament and feel that it is not as much based on skill as getting the correct opponent. In many blind tournaments, such as in Starcraft 2, players are forced to choose a race to play throughout the tournament which can be seen by all other players. Players are also put into certain brackets and must rise above the others to compete in the finals. Currently, low-skill players are not weeded out, they are just forced into the thinking of "I can't win the tournament anymore because I'm too far down in rating, and there's no way I can beat 10 people that won all of their games." In any system, telling the player that they can play but they don't have the chance to get anything out of it is incredibly demotivating. This follows with players that win every single game. If 10 people win every game, it is luck that chooses the #1 player who happened to get extra elo from harder/easier/longer/shorter matches, depending on how elo is determined in tournaments. I can gain personal fulfillment from saying 'I won every match' but that is not nearly as satisfying as being rewarded for being a top player given the short end of the elo stick.

    Following the original post, if there are going to be rewards for more people, there need to be better rewards for the top contenders. The renown is insignificant. Currently, only the #1 player receives a reward (their name on the wall of fame), yet #2 and #3 should still be given a decent reward in the form of other leaderboards (2nd and 3rd place tournament placements similar to the 1st place leaderboard, for example) or an aesthetic change of some sort.
    Last edited by SunAngel; 03-18-2013 at 02:53 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    Guys, chill. There's a history to why the tournament format is like this.

    It was either having something simple and workable (but not perfect) like our current tourney. Or no tourney at all. This feature has 0 to do with the single player and Stoic introduced it for the multi-player only because it was a great idea.

    I know there are better formats and tighter ways to run and configure the tourney (there will be a fix for the rematching thing too btw), but for the mean time, there isn't time or manpower on Stoic's side to get this into starcraft level e-sport tournament.

    The suggestions are very much welcome though, just take note this will probably be focused on once Stoic can shift attention from the single player to Factions again.

    Afterall, we have a workable/working system, yes, all that's really left are the finishing touches .
    Sorry to sound harsh, but if you cannot do something right and have the time to devote to it you should not do it at all.

    I get that it is a small dev team and they are working very hard on the game. I appreciate that and enjoy the fruits of their labor. Perhaps the best thing to do is remove the tourney system until such time as they can implement it right. Having a flawed system just to have it because its a great idea will not benefit the game in the long run. Even if removing now might miff some players.

    That or maybe implement some small fixes to appease the players and get more people to play it. More happy players are good for the game. I do not mean to sound ungrateful. Heck I did support the game and spent a little money on it because I want it to succeed. We all do.

    I am sure that when they have time they can do something great. First impressions are very important and balancing the game is difficult especially when it is not their priority. No doubt it would be a difficult decision to decide to nix the tourney system until they can devote some time to balance it, but since they do not have the time maybe it's the best decision? Also I am chill man. Like totally chill...

  14. #14
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    I think it's safe to say a good number of people enjoy/have fun with the tournament even as it is . If you would ask someone whether they want better rewards or no tournament, they would probably say keep the tournament anyway. Well,just basing that on how people want to improve it, not remove it and how a good number participate.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Butters's Avatar
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    Not an expert on the subject by any stretch, but I really don't think the tournament system is broken to the point of needing to be scrapped altogether (certainly not because of rewards anyway, I guess that was more directed at the formatting and elo thing). I'm not sure it's even broken at all ; there are flaws in the system, sure, but it still works on the whole. Preventing rematches will be a significant step in the right direction.
    I did not consider Stoic's stance on this, which is very understandable. Thanks for explaining Raven. Let's say then that I have no major gripe with the tourney, and maybe we'll talk about rewards in due time ^^

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    I think it's safe to say a good number of people enjoy/have fun with the tournament even as it is . If you would ask someone whether they want better rewards or no tournament, they would probably say keep the tournament anyway. Well,just basing that on how people want to improve it, not remove it and how a good number participate.
    +1

    I think it is a far better option to leave it as it is (with just easy to implement, slight changes: CHANGE THE TIME WINDOW! ) and let those, who do not like it, ignore it for now, than removing it for everyone. At least for me participating in a tourney seem to be the only reliable way to be matched with other team power 6 teams. Outside of tourneys I get uneven matches more often than even matches and while this is not really the topic here, I am happily willing to "pay" 20 renown just for that.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Shiri's Avatar
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    Just having skimmed the thread:

    I think it would be good to have rewards for people finishing all their tournament matches (or maybe just winning a small amount of them so they can't just spam surrender all the way through.) Obviously this would be completely trivial compared to anything the top 3/5/etc. would win, but the psychology of not having just sunk renown and time into losing for no gain would probably be a pretty significant improvement for a bunch of players, and make them feel a lot better about participating. As it is I don't even bother with tournaments.

  18. #18
    Backer gaelvin's Avatar
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    Is there a Renown bonus (along the lines of the Daily Streak bonus) for Tournament games played? If there was, you'd at least have a chance to re-earn your entrance fee, win or lose.
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  19. #19
    I feel like the reduced wait time and the guarantee of a fair match up is worth the 20 renown

  20. #20
    So when they implement the fair matches in the next patch will you still play the tourney? Just wondering.

    I think tweaking it is better than taking it away, but if it is abusable (like it is now) then it should be taken down until it is at least fair for all parties. So all parties get an equal chance. You should not be able to replay the same person in the tourney. The problem with that is there is no structure to the tourney. You just play as many games as possible. It is very hard to balance that imo.

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