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Thread: Rank Reset (Wins-Losses-Streak-Etc)

  1. #1
    Junior Member leiloca's Avatar
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    Rank Reset (Wins-Losses-Streak-Etc)

    Hey guys,

    This game is all about ranks so far. Only pvp, ranks is what matters. How do I reset my rank? If it is not possible to reset and try again, whats the point of playing this game?

    Thx,
    Leiloca

  2. #2
    If you believe you're at the bottom of the barrel your improved strategy should naturally progress you to higher opponents as you win more then losing.

    Accept your fail own it, and then move on homey. Also the game is all about strategy having a good time talking to your opponent bro. If you don't have fun stateger-izing it up then maybe the genres not right for you atm.

  3. #3
    Junior Member leiloca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zomnivore View Post
    If you believe you're at the bottom of the barrel your improved strategy should naturally progress you to higher opponents as you win more then losing.

    Accept your fail own it, and then move on homey. Also the game is all about strategy having a good time talking to your opponent bro. If you don't have fun stateger-izing it up then maybe the genres not right for you atm.
    I'm saying this not only because of me, but because a lot of ppl like me wont be playing if the only point is ranking. Don't be naive enough to think everyone is a wonder-fan just like you. Ppl want a chance to win. If they dont have a chance to win, they wont play the game anymore. Besides, stat reset would be a rule for everyone, which means everyone would still have equal chances.

    Just saying anyway.

  4. #4
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    I dont quite understand, what does competitive rank have to with "having a chance to win"? Isn't the relationship in reverse...you improve your ranking by winning, not improve your chances to win by ranking?

  5. #5
    Junior Member Yojimbo's Avatar
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    The more pressing issue for me is about being able to temporarily downgrade units to rank 1 for tournaments. I perhaps got a little excited about leveling my raidmasters. Now the only way I can use RMs in a tournament is to buy new rank one units. I know its not that much renown, but I could end up with roster of identical units at different ranks for use in the various tournaments.

    Apologies if you can actually do this -or if it's in the works - and I've missed it!

  6. #6
    Junior Member leiloca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    I dont quite understand, what does competitive rank have to with "having a chance to win"? Isn't the relationship in reverse...you improve your ranking by winning, not improve your chances to win by ranking?
    I explained myself badly. By having a chance to win I mean having a chance to climb the ranks. People with 20 hours per day will climb Wins rank. Hardcore / theorycrafting players will climb the "Win/Losses" rank as well as Kill Streak ranks. There is no place for a casual gamer to be engaged this way. I'm just trying to express my point of view as a casual gamer. There is no point for me to go back to the game. What's the point? PVP griding? That's something new for me. I really like this game, i bought the eternal boost as well as some color stuff in order to support the developers. But there should be some kind of rank reset. Even if it's like not for me personally, but for everyone once a month. When the reset comes, top ranking players are rewarded somehow. So the rank is always temporary. Maybe this could be a third rank besides all-time and tournament. I don't know.

    Blood Brothers, for instance, a similar game to this (on Andoird) has events, like the Tournaments here, but with much more rewards, even for ppl at 30,000# position. This game has so much potential. DEVS, IF YOU ARE READING THIS, PLEASE check how blood brothers do in order to keep ppl playing. Weekly events, rank reset, more rewards. Banner Saga's combat mechanics + Blood Brothers's player engagement = ultimate fun time.

    My 2 cents.
    Thx,

  7. #7
    Junior Member leiloca's Avatar
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    If you reset the ranks every week and reward top players, ppl will play at max potential next week. So the cycles go on and on, and you are always trying to position yourself at the top of the ranks, and your chances are renewed every week! Understand? That's the kind of player engagement mechanics this game will have to implement in order to be sucesful in the long-run.

    BTW, im a fan of art, and the art in this game is AWSOME. The User Interface is also amazing. Character customization could be more creative and flexible. I would rate this game a 7.7/10 with potential to go 9.8/10 with player engagement and more developed mechanics. But there is a lot of time for the devs to work here. So no pressure. Just brainstorming.

  8. #8
    The team has talked about resetting the rankings each "season" (which I guess means after a big change has been made).

    As TBS already has weekly tournaments where a moderately casual player can test their mettle (currently, ~1.5 hours each day for five days), it's seems that your only suggestion is to increase rewards in the tourney...? If so, you might want to join the folks discussing that over here.

  9. #9
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    Alright, thanks for clarifying that and for giving an example to look at . I do think there are stats which as permanent (no resets) sort of stick with you/haunt you even months down the line (w/l ratio for example).

    But on rankings I would have to say the game caters well to casuals because of Elo, which is the primary ranking mechanism. Even if the player is casual or starts the game by losing quite a bit, the way Elo works is it rewards winning against players of equal or better skill more.

    This means it is easier for new players to climb, and it is very very hard for top players to grind.

    A new player can rise 100-200 points in rating within 10 wins. A top player will only gain maybe 20-30 from the same number .

    And sure people can grind stats, but I think achieving a better record in less games show much more on player skill than grinding wins and games to achieve the same result. (well this would be a good argument for employing seasonal play also).

    Season play has a good chance of being implemented once the matchmaker has settled down and the game is in a more stable meta.
    Last edited by raven2134; 03-18-2013 at 07:57 PM.

  10. #10
    The problem with re-setting ranks is that it throws the noobs back into the same games as the pros, so they get ripped apart, and give up. The whole point of any ranking system is to provide more competitive matches for everyone. It's like you are training an AI - if you throw out your data periodically, it never learns.

  11. #11
    Junior Member leiloca's Avatar
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    Ok, so here are a few Ideas that should be considered in terms of player engagement. The more player engagement, the more they plat, the sorter they interval they will play, and they will buy things to overpower other players, even though you can make it without spending a dime but taking a lil bit longer:

    (1) Tournamet rewards, base on the ammount of ppl subscribed to the tornament.
    Take, for example, torunament rewards from Blood Brother:

    Rank 1-50:
    3 x legendary familiars (check explanation below)
    10 x scarlet coin pacts (scarlet coins lets u roll new familiars, from rare to legendary, at random, to be added to you roster, and if good enough, to your party of five.
    10 x crystal sets. Crystals are used to updrade your familiars status, STR, WIS, AGI, and so on to a max of 10 cysrals on each status. you can crystilize before merging two familiars into a even more powerful one. Its a card-rpg game, amazingly done.

    familiars = your troops). They divide familiars into "common" "uncommon" "rare" "elite" and "legendary". Like in a pokemon game, you can evolve two familiars to produce a higher familiar. You can have up to 4 familiars and your wardloard on a party. They have skills also. It's pretty neat system. Anyway, this was just a brief explanation on Bloodbrothers mechanics.

    They go on Rank 51 - 200
    1 legendary
    9 scarket coins
    10 cystal sets

    200 - 2000
    1 event rare familiar
    8 scarlet coisa,
    8 crystal sets.

    This go until rank 50,000 (and believe me, more then 300,000 plyaers world-wide are participating on their events. The event lasts a week. Rewards are distributed from 1 - 50,000 and that is amazing.

    There are the following kinds of events, all with new "event" only cards to be rewarded (a #30,000 player ranked can get a rare event card, and that is awsome. He can then trade on the online bazzar for other fams with other players.

    -PVP events (most likely SAGA's torunaments)
    -RAID events (your in-game allies / friends against huge bosses, prepare to get ur ass whooped)
    -BATTLE COLISIUM (teams are formed and they have to capture 5 points by PVPing other teams. This is an amazing event, as you have to coordinate your attacks and defences with ur team mates.
    -SPECIAL DUNGEONS: where you go through PVE dungeons and you ding CAPTURABLE find bosses. You can capture then at a percentage of aprox 7% after defeating a special dungeon boss, further rewarding the players, and all that besides the complete event ranks, which will also be reward.

    The players spent HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY IN THIS GAME. To roll a scarlet pack, where you hace a slightly chance of getting a decent familiar, youll pay 3 dollars. To roll 10 scarlet packs, 30 dollars. And believe me, i never spent a dime in games until this one. Its totally worth it in order to build a team to compete in the events.

    Thats how they kepet hundreds of thousands of players through and apparently simply pvp game. You really should do a study case on blood brothers. Many aspects of it can be implemented here in this game, and make it extremely rewards for ppl. Thats whats missing for me. rewards.

    I could go on on my list of things that would improve this game in terms of overall game mechanics, but then I would have to charge for my services. lol kidding, im helping cuz i want to see this game a success. I know it has the potential. Just some work to be done.

    Thx for listening to my humbe opinions.
    Hope the devs hear this name BLOOD BROTHERS and play if for 1 month, participating in the events and understand why even sucky players keep playing and buying in-game stuff like mad rich kids.

    A case stufy perfctly made for the future of Banner Saga.
    I still play Blood Brothers everytime i can, its impossible to let it go. My party there owns mad.

  12. #12
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    Hmmm, events are a good idea I think.

    But rewards are limited right now because Factions doesn't focus on content but instead gameplay and combat.

    Also, there's clearly a sense that blood brothers is built to milk players and money will buy you a better team than you could earn through playing? Just some initial impressions.

    I think there a things to be observed from the example, but I definitely don't want Factions to end up becoming blood brothers.

    Blood brothers is much more like a collectible TCG than a tactical turn based RPG.
    Last edited by raven2134; 03-18-2013 at 08:37 PM.

  13. #13
    Junior Member leiloca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    Hmmm, events are a good idea I think.

    But rewards are limited right now because Factions doesn't focus on content but instead gameplay and combat.

    Also, there's clearly a sense that blood brothers is built to milk players and money will buy you a better team than you could earn through playing? Just some initial impressions.

    I think there a things to be observed from the example, but I definitely don't want Factions to end up becoming blood brothers.

    Blood brothers is much more like a collectible TCG than a tactical turn based RPG.
    you are right. I just wanted the devs to play it for some time to understand how they make players keep palying forever and ever, even when they suck (they team is not good, but they still enjoy playing

    Many lessons can be learn from sucesful examples. I consider BB a sucess cuz i have my allies and we play every event together, even though its not a mmo. They built something really unique over there. And i mean, yes Banner Saga owns BB in many ways, but in player engagement they are experts. Combine those elements and u have a powerful game, for the casual and harcore player.

  14. #14
    Superbacker bruther's Avatar
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    OP: John has already said that before long they're planning to add a "quickmatch" versus option in which no games are ranked; and, the last build has already changed things so that games played below rank 6 have no effect on rank/streaks/win-loss ratio/etc. I have a strong suspicion that they may reset the records after that quickmatch feature is added; would that constitute the casual-gamer-friendliness you're looking for?

  15. #15
    Superbacker piotras's Avatar
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    Very interesting thread - I'm getting more and more concerned that what new people recognise as the main incentive for playing TBS are the rankings or at least their experience is polarised because of rankings.

    My impression from what leiloca wrote is that he/she wants to be part of the competitive community. But leiloca is put off by the fact that there are permanent stats (wins, total games, w:l, etc.) in which new players don't feel they can even try to compete because these are simply rewarding grind where other had weeks/months of head-start (and which will get even more unreachable as months/years go by). I think leiloca is asking for less 'elitist' approach, where new players could compete with others.

    As raven said, permanent stats give the feeling of 'haunting' you down the line, which puts off new players who see their -5 win streaks and 0.2 w:l ratio. I'm more and more in favour of a monthly/seasonal reset.

  16. #16
    Member Leartes's Avatar
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    I'm not really sure resetting would do any good. If we reset Tirean he will go own a ninety-nine win streak vs new players which is boring for him and boring for the new players. Also any rewards most rewards for tournament participation are stupid. You can play competitively with a complete rank 1 team which is super easy to aquire. If you play the 25 tournament games you'll get about 200 renown out of that already, what more do you whish for?
    At the moment upgrading your units with money only makes you play more strong players and lose more games.

    Finally, why do stats matter? Elo is important so that matches are fair. The rest is just for the lolz. The main thing currently is playing, enjoying good strategy and testing team compositions on rank 1.

  17. #17
    Superbacker piotras's Avatar
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    It's a question of incentives. While many people enjoy the 'lolz', others don't and I need to agree that the main incentive given by the game currently are rankings, compared to things like creating new teams and unit progression.

  18. #18
    I'm STRONGLY against resetting Elo. I actually am not that strongly against resetting the other stats, though I am quite surprised people are so childish they can't handle this (have they never played any other competitive game or sport before?)

    If we need to baby people by hiding their losses, well, I think that's tragic but it's a small price to pay for a bigger playerbase.

    But DO NOT reset Elo, that would break the entire system.

    Maybe Win/Loss ratio should only be calculated for the last 20 games or month of time, whichever is longer. And win streak can just sit at 0 during loss streaks.

  19. #19
    @Piotras: But is it really grindy? Good new players seem to show up on the elo and win streak charts all the time, so I don't really feel that those are a grind. Some people apparently like the grindy parts (getting on #wins and #games), but those aren't to be taken seriously; and Win:Loss is sort of a joke.*

    @Leartes: Yeah, that does seem like a problem with a full reset. Stoic could do a partial reset: everything but elo, or with elo not mapped all the way back to 1000 (say, 1000 if < 1000; 1200 if in top 10%; 1100 for everyone else). As you say, there's not much reason to reset elo, as it serves a useful function and can/will be improved as you get genuinely better.

    Stats matter to folks like the OP not for any good reason, but just because they are there to see. I suspect that many folks, when not in a match, go straight to the HoV to see their updated stats (as I do). Once the Trophy Tower opens up, they'll be able to peruse (and obsess over ) their achievements, too.

    I play it for the mostly same reasons you do,** but it still takes a while to get to rank 1 and to understand what's going on. If there is some change that can be made so that new players like the OP are more inclined to stick around until they get there, that's all to the good. And it sounds like you wouldn't mind a change to stats, anyway...?

    * #1 seems to have created an account just to get that streak, then stopped playing on losing, as his/her best win streak = W:L = 96

    ** testing teams; enjoying playing; but also elo, especially in tourneys

  20. #20
    Member Leartes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franknarf View Post
    Stats matter to folks like the OP not for any good reason, but just because they are there to see.
    [...]
    * #1 seems to have created an account just to get that streak, then stopped playing on losing, as his/her best win streak = W:L = 96
    Imo this is a reason to completely remove win-streak ratings. Maybe such information should be made private? (current/longest win/lose-streak and winrate) They are fun to look at from time to time but the ranking is void of meaning.
    Total games played and total wins is a tribute to the most hardcore grinders, which is ok imo. Elo is a tribut to the best players which is also fine.

    If the OP really wants it, I can see an individual reset-stats button that resets everything (maybe except elo?) only for yourself. Not sure what the impact on elo would be, but shouldn't be too bad if people don't use it too much (apart from the sand-bagging if high-skilled players reset to farm new players).

    I'd be seriously pissed if my total game number or total win number ever gets whiped. It is a tribute to how much and long I play this game and it is there for eternity, hehe.

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