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Thread: quickmatch should consider Elo

  1. #1

    quickmatch should consider Elo

    I just played someone who must have a much lower Elo and it was no fun. He said things like "I don't know what happened...I consistently lose now...I am quitting this I think." My guess is that he's being matched up with very experienced opponents, just because we're the folks who are online at the time.

    According to the changelog, quickmatch is only based on team power (which, I suppose, makes it quicker), but I think Elo and/or #games should also factor in.

    Oh, and for experienced players, it would also be preferable to match with players of similar skill, since we want to use quickmatch to test out builds.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Shiri's Avatar
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    I assume this is already the case, but in the event that it's not, you probably want a "hidden Elo" that's separate from visible ranked elo and only used for matchmaking, so players are generally matched against opponents of around their ability. Otherwise making it work based on Elo wouldn't do anything because, well, they're playing unranked so their Elo isn't going to change to begin with, preventing the matchmaker from operating properly. Even though it's stress free in the sense that the rankings in QM aren't visible, 50/50 matchups are still desirable.

  3. #3
    Member Leartes's Avatar
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    Pretty obvious this would come after all the whining about even matches. If you have unranked matches you can't really base them on elo for simple reasons. It is unfair to those that play ranked succesfully vs those that only play unranked and tournament.

    If you want a fair match, go play ranked. If you lose a lot in quickmatch, go play ranked. It is more fair obviously.

    On the other hand it'd be nice of all the vets if you don't faceroll new players in quickmatch. Testing builds should be possible in ranked as well. Quickmatch is just a nice name for "I don't care for super unbalanced match-ups, I want to play NOW" - and that is what it does well.

    EDIT: Hidden elo can work, though the wait time for better match should be super short imo. Apart from that, if you have rank 6 ideally everyone sticks to ranked and leaves new players with rank 1-5 alone in quickmatch (underdog + much lower skill ...)
    Last edited by Leartes; 03-20-2013 at 08:45 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Leartes View Post
    If you want a fair match, go play ranked. If you lose a lot in quickmatch, go play ranked. It is more fair obviously.
    While this is true and obvious to those players who read the forums and generally keep up with the development of Factions, I don't think it's intuitive to new players. If I were new, my first reaction would be to stay away from Ranked until I was more confident in my abilities, which is exactly the opposite of what I should be doing. Perhaps some additional in-game explanation would help new players understand this?

  5. #5
    Superbacker piotras's Avatar
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    I guess the elo is not taken into account so the match maker can be quicker.

    Also, if someone plays unranked mostly, his/her skill is getting better but the elo stays the same, so that person will start to be soon matched against weaker opponents. If we can't expect unranked to match fairly anyway, why should we bother with elo? At least you have a random chance of playing against better and weaker opponents. When you're new, the pool of better opponents will be greater, but one needs to decide if they rather play for fun (unranked) or for 'competitive-fun', ie stats (ranked).

    I would like the fact that I can play against a stronger opponent (or be out-stated) without the whole w:l stats and other bullshi(r)t, you definitely learn more from that.

  6. #6
    Superbacker StandSure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjineer View Post
    While this is true and obvious to those players who read the forums and generally keep up with the development of Factions, I don't think it's intuitive to new players. If I were new, my first reaction would be to stay away from Ranked until I was more confident in my abilities, which is exactly the opposite of what I should be doing. Perhaps some additional in-game explanation would help new players understand this?
    I think this is a good idea. The connotation of "Ranked" is that it is for serious players only, whereas to me this seems like the go-to style of play, since it puts you with someone who should give you an interesting game, and offers the most rewards (Renown AND status). Maybe this option should be renamed to "Fair Match" or "Even Match" or "Matched Game" to mitigate the feeling like you are entering a higher level of play. To me, the ranking aspect is secondary to drawing a worthy opponent.

  7. #7
    I like the idea of a hidden Elo that still works relatively quickly. I don't think it's necessary to have quickmatch games be lopsided or necessarily very quick to find.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leartes View Post
    ...it'd be nice of all the vets if you don't faceroll new players in quickmatch. Testing builds should be possible in ranked as well. Quickmatch is just a nice name for "I don't care [about] super unbalanced match-ups, I want to play NOW" - and that is what it does well.
    I don't think we can count on vets to stay out of quickmatch. For me, as a coward I would like to use it to test out builds. And it will probably be the destination for veterans who want to safely farm Renown. BTW, "care for" means "like".

    @Ninjineer: Hiya (we played a couple of days ago) and welcome to the forums. I think that's a good point: new players won't know to "go play ranked" when they lose a lot in quickmatch; they'll just quit (like the guy I played said he would). We need somewhere safe for new players, where they both (i) won't get thwomped and (ii) won't have to play "competitively".

  8. #8
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    Hmm...Can't we all just be happy for like 1 week that we now have 2 match types? I don't think Stoic even gets a honeymoon period of 5 days for any of the changes they introduce .

    Perhaps the labels need tweaking, system wise though, doesn't it work well enough?

    We asked for these things and got them , let's express a bit of appreciation/gratitude first at least.

  9. #9
    Superbacker StandSure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franknarf View Post
    We need somewhere safe for new players, where they both (i) won't get thwomped and (ii) won't have to play "competitively".
    I still think that this place is "Ranked" play, since you get matched with someone of similar skill. Now that the bottom ranks just say "1000+" (like I am worse than the 1,000th player, and not specifically rank #23,952 ), there isn't much shame/downside in playing competitively. Heck, you don't even have to go look at the Hall of Valor if you don't care where you are ranked; it's easy to avoid, and other players can't see your rank or Elo or whatever unless you are top 20.

    If you emphasize that Ranked Play is a fair and even match, with a footnote about matchmaking taking longer, rather than focusing on the rankings, you have the best set-up. I think it's in the best interest of everyone to BE ranked, even if they don't pay attention, so that a fair match is possible. So the interface should steer you to Ranked Play, and present Quickmatch as a means to get, well, a quick match, BUT at the cost of not affecting your ranking.

    Ranking should be something that you opt OUT of rather than opt INTO.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Shiri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    Hmm...Can't we all just be happy for like 1 week that we now have 2 match types? I don't think Stoic even gets a honeymoon period of 5 days for any of the changes they introduce .

    Perhaps the labels need tweaking, system wise though, doesn't it work well enough?

    We asked for these things and got them , let's express a bit of appreciation/gratitude first at least.
    Well, if it wasn't clear, I'm really glad we have an unranked queue now, I plan on using it a lot since it's less stressful than the ranked queue! But that doesn't necessarily mean I can assume there won't be any teething pains.

    For example, I'm noticing people complain in global chat that they're not finding matches anymore. I assume they're going into ranked with power 7 teams or something and just finding no one to be matched against. That's pretty much gonna happen, but maybe making it more obvious that's what's happening so they can go in with rank 6 would be good? Or rank 12. Whatever.

  11. #11
    Superbacker StandSure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    Hmm...Can't we all just be happy for like 1 week that we now have 2 match types? I don't think Stoic even gets a honeymoon period of 5 days for any of the changes they introduce .
    Ha ha, the price of being responsive to your customers. I personally can't help myself from getting involved in a discussion when I think I might have a solution, and I think the Beta might have spoiled us a bit . But I'm big enough to step back if Stoic wants to say "that's it!"

    To be honest, I thought that the Factions release was going to be pretty much set in stone, with maybe some new units sprinkled in later. I've been really surprised at how much feedback/response there has continued to be...I would have shut that door when I could! Better men than I...

  12. #12
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    Ohh don't speak to soon, I do think they've got their hands on the knob, and pulling with all their steadily growing beard-ly might, but our community is holding on to the door and its a tug of war hahaha

  13. #13
    @StandSure: Yeah, I think maybe a relabeling to encourage Ranked matches might be enough, now that the competitive aspect has been dampened with the "1000+" thing. Still, the mm for unranked might benefit from some tweaking.

    @raven: Like Shiri, I'm really glad we have unranked matches now. Thanks, Stoic!

  14. #14
    I am grateful that stoic did what they did and are working hard on the game. So a big thumbs up!

    However, there are some valid points here that I feel could be easily solved. right now we have ranked and quickmatch.

    Rank is the go to place to compete and earn elo and some renown.

    quickmatch is where you go to test builds and farm renown. As there are no consequences to losing as far as your rank goes.

    To most new players rank = hardest competition and best players. Quickmatch would be like a training grounds area, but it isn't. Players are going to farm renown there. That is going to be the go to farming zone. So how to solve these issues?

    Rank- Nothing wrong with it. It should stay as is. Needs some kind of way to see how many of what power decks are in the lobby though to improve que times.

    Quickmatch- Needs to be renamed unranked. Matches should still be fair as they are in ranked. W/L still count, but nothing else does. Renown gain is halved or lowered. This gives more incentive to play ranked. I like the idea of a secret elo and games played being a preferred method for matching people up. This will be the go to testing grounds and the 2nd place new players go so matches still need to be fair imo.

    Training grounds- This needs to be added as a 3rd option. This will be where new players only go. Rules for TG are as follows:
    - Only sub rank 6 decks
    - No units higher than rank 1
    - No W/L counted
    - No elo gained
    - Renown gained as normal
    - Only fair matches (important for new players to be matched equally)
    - No more than 40 games played to be eligible (to prevent farming)

    Honestly all matches should be matched up fair as far as deck power goes. You can still make decent que times without mismatching people. Some system for skill still needs to be used in all modes of play for matching people. This method gives the fairest odds at an even match.

    So what should we do about underdog bonus? Make it based off of elo (secret elo for unranked and normal elo for ranked). Let's face it someone that is more skilled is still going to win most of the time even with a fair power deck so rewarding underdog based on elo makes sense.

    So the new progression would be:

    New player. Goes through the tutorial. Is prompted to watch the other tutorials upon completion of the initial one. Then they are prompted to play in the training grounds. They get a fair number of games (40) where they can earn renown and skill to play and make a power 6 team.

    After the TG phase (or before if they have a rank 6 deck) then they can choose to go right to ranked (earning the same renown and elo) or further testing in the unranked match. You will gain less renown (to promote rank play instead of renown farming), but can test without losing or gain elo or rank.

    In all areas you will be matched up against a fair power team. This give the best overall experience as skill and not unit power will always be the determining factor for winning/losing. You can still earn an underdog bonus based off of the skill (elo difference) of your opponent.

    I feel the above is a good progression for the game and will offer a good experience for all player types.

  15. #15
    Honestly all matches should be matched up fair as far as deck power goes. You can still make decent que times without mismatching people.
    Citation Needed.

    The rest of your post is good stuff and I agree with much of it, but I really have concerns about whether that statement is actually true. I feel like it probably isn't for all power values and times of day.

  16. #16
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    Quickmatch is the same matchmaking that was "Versus" prior to the update, it still considers team power and elo ranking. The only difference is that it's not counted into any leaderboards.

    So there are two differences between Quickmatch and Ranked:
    • Ranked matches count into rankings (elo is changed after match, win streaks, wins, all that stuff), Quickmatch does not
    • Ranked matches do not allow different team power to be matched; if we assume that for each team power value there are 10 differently ranked and players waiting in Ranked queue and the same in Quickmatch, you'll be matched a lot quicker in the latter mode cause in Ranked you can only be matched with those 10 that have the same team power


    My explanation seems to be rather obscure but nevertheless


    To summ up:
    - for now you can use quickmatch to gain renown/kills and experiment with different builds not being afraid to lose ranking
    - ranked matching is the same as tournament one, you are matched with equal teampowered opponent, the only difference being your skill
    - ranked game would be rather long to be matched for odd teampower values, cause there are lot less players playing non-tournament team power; but you can still use odd teampower and be matched in quickmatch
    Last edited by netnazgul; 03-21-2013 at 01:11 AM.
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  17. #17
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    oh, as for this:
    Quote Originally Posted by franknarf View Post
    I just played someone who must have a much lower Elo and it was no fun. He said things like "I don't know what happened...I consistently lose now...I am quitting this I think." My guess is that he's being matched up with very experienced opponents, just because we're the folks who are online at the time.
    Considering that you played before 19:00 UTC+0, matchmaker was broken that time so it gave you any possible opponent in no time and weird elo gain was awarded for win (you can observe that on the leaderboards - some players gained crazy amounts of elo yesterday due to this bug).
    Arnie said somewhere around 18:40 UTC+0 yesterday that this was fixed.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by erom View Post
    Citation Needed.

    The rest of your post is good stuff and I agree with much of it, but I really have concerns about whether that statement is actually true. I feel like it probably isn't for all power values and times of day.
    Thank you for the support Erom.

    The match making will improve as time goes by. I think making it more noobie friendly is a good step in improving this. Right now there are just not a lot of people queing as the game is so new. (especially at powers higher than 6) and the match maker is still being tweaked.

    The biggest thing that will improve que times is seeing how many of what deck powers are queing. Then people can tweak their deck as needed to get a fast match. Between that and fair matches only will alleviate players concerns, hence making more players que increasing que times. PvP can be intimidating to new players. I know I was weary of it as well. Renaming and tweaking the choices will help this.

    So that way there is a little give and take from both sides. Stoic can make things faster by displaying deck powers and fair matches. The players can help out by adapting to the que. As more players play the game higher power decks will que faster.

  19. #19
    @netnazgul: I was playing a quickmatch, not ranked (hence the thread's title ). I didn't catch any of that overflowing Elo during the glitchy period.

    Quickmatch is the same matchmaking that was "Versus" prior to the update, it still considers team power and elo ranking.
    You sound quite confident, but if that's true, the changelog should be changed:

    Quickmatch: Find the best possible match with a Power difference of up to 4, and disregarding Elo.
    @vexbane: I agree with your diagnosis, but as far as the details of the prescription...dunno. I feel like the training grounds you describe should be merge-able with quickmatch, and that the only new gameplay modes needed will come out with the AI and 2v2.

  20. #20
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franknarf View Post
    You sound quite confident, but if that's true, the changelog should be changed:
    Hmm, I've skipped that line in patch notes then... Still it's rather fair, quickmatch is what it is - very quick matchmaking.
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