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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: I am very dissapointed.

  1. #1
    Junior Member KeyMonk's Avatar
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    Unhappy I am very dissapointed.

    I thought I had finally found a 'true' tactical game with beautiful art and a great community. The last two it certainly has. The combat system is very well thought out.
    It being a f2p game has not stopped it from being well balanced.

    That being said, two things have stood out to me as being massive detractors.
    Skills and map elements that do damage in a tile (like the coal row in one map and the siege archer's skill) do damage only once - even if a unit remains standing on the tiles in question. This staggered me when I first noticed it. Why on earth is it like that when it gives so very much more tactical depth for it to be the more 'realistic' way.

    The second is that out of the last four or so matches I have played, every single one has come down to one of my units next to an opponents melee unit and us just missing back and forth.
    Why does this game have unannounced miss chance? Actually - other miss chance based on ranged units - why is there miss chance at all even in a 'perfect' situation where they units are literally face to face.

    TLDR: Great game with two flaws. There is 'unannounced' miss chance. There is miss chance even when face to face in melee leading to games ending in random chance. Effects that do damage to units standing on a tile do damage only once - even if units are still on it for later turns and the effect is still active.

    If these are fixed this game would be the game I have been looking for and - in my personal opinion - become a far better game. (the difference for me at least between spending money to support it and not)

  2. #2
    Glad you like the game. Welcome to the forums!

    The fire tiles (the coals that are orange) do damage each turn that you're standing on them until you step off. (turn = time when that unit is active)

    There's a good design reason for a miss chance when armor > strength. Try to formulate the game without it, eh. I don't know about its being unannounced; there are a couple in-game tutorials you might have missed. See the picture here: https://bannersaga.wikidot.com/guide-start If miss chance isn't in the tutorials, it should be, I suppose.

    A good strategy in this game leaves very little up to chance. Remember that you can (and generally should) hit armor before strength and that whenever strength >= armor, there's 100% chance to hit.

    Sorry if you already know this; it just seems like you might have misunderstood something here.

  3. #3
    Senior Member sweetjer's Avatar
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    Miss chance is calculated as such: -10% chance to hit for every 1 point the attacker's str is below the target's armor. Thus: if you are attacking with a unit whose str is 10 and the target has armor value of 12, you would have -20% chance to hit, displayed as 80% chance to hit in the user interface. Essentially a positive number yields extra damage per point whereas negative numbers yield -10% chance to hit per point. It's very elegant - once you know how it works.
    that which does not kill you often leaves you handicapped

  4. #4
    Junior Member KeyMonk's Avatar
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    I am very sure that I have seen a unit stand on fire during it's turn and not take damage, but it may have been.. idk. If I see it again I will upload video.

    As for the miss chance. It seems like when there is a miss chance that it should be shown just like the archer miss chance. (if it is - I must have missed it)

  5. #5
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    It is shown . Each hit always shows a % to hit under the attack button of the unit.

  6. #6
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeyMonk View Post
    As for the miss chance. It seems like when there is a miss chance that it should be shown just like the archer miss chance. (if it is - I must have missed it)
    There is no special "archer miss chance" in the game. Both archers and melee use the same hit/miss mechanics,

    Hit_chance = (100 - 10*(Def_Armor - Att_Strength))%
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  7. #7
    The point is to be in the better position in the mid-to-end game, so that the odds fall in your favor (or have no miss chance at all). Setting yourself up to be in the better position at the end is one of the best parts of the game. If the luck is 50-50 nearly every time, you either both equally sucked or rocked. I can only advise you to then improve at the game.

  8. #8
    Junior Member Impaler's Avatar
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    What really sucks is the devs choice to implement these random factors into the game. I've stopped playing because of games being decided by random elements like miss chance on higher armor and hit or miss with trasher's flail.

    The game looked promising, but from a competitive stand-point it's a joke to have the outcome of a match decided by a random number generator.

  9. #9
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    Hmm, I think MTG is a pretty competitive game (albeit a card game). And even that game has dice-rolls.

    Every game surely has it's own prescribed mechanics, and the success/competitiveness of any one isn't based on the inclusion or exclusion of randomness, but how it integrates with and affects the gameplay. Now, games have varying degrees of RNG, and players have varying tastes. I think TBSF is in a good place for determenistic gameplay with a pinch of luck.

    (I mean look, poker is super competitive, it is a high skill game, but if you don't luck out on some good hands, you just aren't going to win - and TBSF is miles away in terms of randomness).

  10. #10
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    I'm somewhere in between the two opinions expressed above:

    On the one side, I like a little bit of chances in the game, that could give an extra spice & twist to each match. I'm not a huge fan of chess, where every game can be read-through and executed in a fool-proof manner (given enough skill and experience).

    On the other had, what I don't entirely like is the pass/fail way that chances are implemented in TBSF. I mean, a chance hit (for 1str, or boosted even up to 4str with 3wp+3ex) has a probability of success, OK, but in the end you do either 0 or X damage. I prefer the way damage was implemented in RPG games with dice-rolls and critical hits/misses.

    But, on the whole, I think the TBSF-way of putting probability & determinism in the same context is novel and interesting.

  11. #11
    If there;s any change to how strength below armor works in this game, it should just be that you can spend willpower to increase accuracy.

    Imagine this: You have the attack option, as normal, but there's a second set of stars above the first one. These are accuracy stars, and the number of them equals either your exertion or the number needed to get to 100%, whichever is lower. If you use accuracy stars, you lose potential stars from the damage stars, as you can still only spend up to your exertion total on the attack.

  12. #12
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    If there;s any change to how strength below armor works in this game, it should just be that you can spend willpower to increase accuracy.
    It could work, and I think its actually quite reasonable, balanced and easy (?) to implement.

    However, the relatively small max values for EX & WP (e.g. 2 & 4, typical) would probably mean that this method would just help make the 70-90% chances even safer. On the contrary, the really low chances (20-50%), being the most critical ones near endgame, will hardly be affected. I mean that its kind of unbalanced to through you WP on very risky moves, RNG-dependent. I think the current approach, where the chances are the predefined while the str-damage is increased 1+ wp-spent, is more rewarding in view of the wp invested...

  13. #13
    I dunno, I once had an endgame with some archers with way more armor than strength, so it was almost totally decided by chance. But still, it was one of the most tense and fun moments that I had with this game. This minimal amount of chance really does not bother me and there really are few games out there that have no chance at all. And the way it's handled here is pretty good, I think.

    Regarding WP-increased accuracy: In many cases, it would not really reduce the amount of chance; some units might not have any WP left or they have to choose additional damage to gain the desired advantage. Would probably just make stuff even more complicated.

  14. #14
    Member Leartes's Avatar
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    I don't know how you play, but in my 100+ games the most risky shot I had to take to win a game was 70%. And that was once in all my games. Otherwise I always won or lost before the random event.

    Sure sometimes it is fun to try to get a kill on some raider with a 60% shot and some exertion boost. But I only try this stuff if I'm certain I win or lose regardless of the outcome.

    As a regular party-pooper in these suggestion threads I'd like to point out two possible flaw. a) you make maimed units stronger by this change. The miss chance is there to be a drawback and it is quite common to maime someone down to 1 strength. Now if this guy can patch up his misschance vs other maimed units he becomes better. And b) you make the guy more complicated than it already is. There are a lot of threads along the lines of "super bad game, hidden miss chance .." which comes from the fact that people don't realize how to handle armor. An additional willpower meter does not make stuff easier to understand.

  15.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #15
    Art Director Arnie's Avatar
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    I am so glad that the two major flaws you bring up actually operate the way you'd hope they would. Try another match.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Rensei's Avatar
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    I finally registered just to comment on this.

    Hazards on the ground - they work perfectly, walking over them does damage, staying there makes You receive it again at the start of the units turn. You could argue that he should be hurt every turn, but first of all those are tough vikings we're talking, so I assume they take just a small amount that accumulates to what he receives, and second - that would simply punish the newbies and make experienced players avoid landing on the bad spot.
    Right now it's a great risk-reward mechanic - if my guy ignores the hazard he can take down important enemy warrior in an unexpected attack, but then he can get blocked by the enemy to take more damage or worse - taken down to 1hp, in which situation he starts the turn and immediately drops dead resulting in the enemy having two turns in a row (the second one with a bonus willpower).

    Miss chance - how can You not like it? Or worse, think of it as a "joke from a competitive standpoint"? This is where the tactical beauty and "very well thought out combat system" shines most (at least for me). You have to plan from the very begging - should I finish off the Trasher, who still can use his ability and hurt me, or should I work on the archers armor, so that I don't end up with her sitting on 7 and my troops having a 50% chance to even scratch her, while she is dishing out the (in)justice? This is what You plan around when creating the team, adjusting their stats and finally make Your moves, and I absolutely love how simple and witty it is (though it pisses me off, when the enemy decides to go "YOLO" and lands three 30% hits in a row killing that heavy armored guy, I was counting on ^_^).

  17. #17
    Junior Member Impaler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rensei View Post
    (though it pisses me off, when the enemy decides to go "YOLO" and lands three 30% hits in a row killing that heavy armored guy, I was counting on ^_^).
    I don't even need to reply when you've effectively countered your own argument.
    Did he deserve that win? Even if it's a fluke situation it's just total BS that someone can end up winning like that.

    I wonder if anyone would've been competing in chess if you flipped a dice before every critical move you made, deciding whether it works or not. But oh my, the tension it would create huh? Wow the guy that just got outplayed won because he got lucky, or the dude that outplayed the other lost because he got unlucky. This sure makes the game very unique and interesting. We don't want determinism. Anything at all could happen. So in other words, right from the get-go it's effectively a 50/50 toss-up whether you win or lose because of all these random factors playing into the outcome of a match.

    Yeah, it's still a fun game, perhaps, but this won't ever be taken seriously as a competitive game.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Impaler View Post
    I don't even need to reply when you've effectively countered your own argument.
    Did he deserve that win? Even if it's a fluke situation it's just total BS that someone can end up winning like that.

    I wonder if anyone would've been competing in chess if you flipped a dice before every critical move you made, deciding whether it works or not. But oh my, the tension it would create huh? Wow the guy that just got outplayed won because he got lucky, or the dude that outplayed the other lost because he got unlucky. This sure makes the game very unique and interesting. We don't want determinism. Anything at all could happen. So in other words, right from the get-go it's effectively a 50/50 toss-up whether you win or lose because of all these random factors playing into the outcome of a match.

    Yeah, it's still a fun game, perhaps, but this won't ever be taken seriously as a competitive game.
    I didnt know that people didnt compete in backgammon, bridge, poker and loads else
    competitively. Where you need a little luck to win, but in the end the most talented persons win. A person that needs three 30% shots to win does not win many games. YOu can play the game so you wouldnt need the randomness. It is really a simple rule, you can always attack the armor, not attack the strength at low likelihood's unless you would lose if you dont. Thetrasher randomness is needed so his power wouldnt be overpowered and you should just always bear it in mind.

  19. #19
    Member Leartes's Avatar
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    I'll feed the troll regardless of knowing better.

    If you need some random event to win, then your winrate is lower than the winrate of a player that doesn't need the random event. Poker is all about the little edge you can get. All-in 51% chance, fold <50%. Still it is a competitive game with a huge million dollar business attached to it.

    Now we have bannersaga, where >99% of the games played by skilled players are not decided by random events. If in any tournament one player manages to pull of one win against impossible odds due to random-luck, then he will still not win the tournament. Also instead of complaining about it on the forum his opponent is most likely better of just playing another game (and most likely winning it).

  20. #20
    Junior Member Impaler's Avatar
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    I'm not complaining because I lose due to this mechanic and I know perfectly well how to "work around" miss chances on armor. It just bugs me that the devs chose such a lazy solution to something that could have much more elegant and exciting mechanics, requiring careful planning or positioning, rather than just rolling a dice.

    It's equally as unrewarding to be on either end of these situations. I won't consider it a legit win if it's decided by a random number generator. I am strictly against any kind of randomness affecting the outcome of a game. But maybe you little "gambling addicts" get a kick out of this thing?

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