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Thread: Is BM OP

  1. #41
    I wonder about if we just lower her strength to 7? This way she becomes like the siege archer but deals less damage with her super long range.

  2. #42
    Well, I'm going a little bit further in the discussion, but I want to stress my point of view a little bit. Archers, all of them, should not have the power to do greater damage to a unit than a melee fighter with an axe, a sword or a hammer! They have the ranged advantage, that is already a big advantage. At the moment they are ranged AND can cause greater strength damage in many situations. An arrow cannot cut the head out of your enemy!

    As I've already said, I'm not going into complex game mechanics as I'm not an experienced player neither a tournament champion, but I've always loved this kind of game and my first impression of those archers was that they throw axes instead of arrows. The main objective of any battle seems to be killing archers as soon as possible and for me, all of it seems to be because of the puncture damage. I like the game and I don't want to change all of it, but for me archers are meant to cripple and weaken, they could ignore some armor by a chance, that would make more sense because, even with no armor, an arrow should hit less than a melee weapon. Anyway, this would change the game a lot, just trying to add some to the discussion. What do you guys think about that?

    edited:
    tl;dr - puncture damage is OP
    Last edited by Space_Ghost; 05-21-2013 at 05:28 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Tirean View Post
    I wonder about if we just lower her strength to 7? This way she becomes like the siege archer but deals less damage with her super long range.
    1 less damage? With puncture hits for 10 or more? No use if the AB doesn't get nerfed. Though may be AB nerf + lowering strength can be a nice solution as this way she'll be losing archer duels in the endgame for sure unless the other breakers on your team do a goo job. But simple lowering her strength only is too little. Nerfing strength+AB can be too much.
    Last edited by ojustme; 05-21-2013 at 05:20 PM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Kletian999's Avatar
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    @Space_Ghost, an arrow could piece armor that a hand axe couldn't.

    @Glraven: on the point of Bowmasters not having enough weaknesses (and being part of a many unit balance problem), maybe buff the move range of Run Through by 1 each level to make it harder to protect them.

  5. #45
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Hello Space_Ghost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Ghost View Post
    Archers, all of them, should not have the power to do greater damage to a unit than a melee fighter with an axe, a sword or a hammer! They have the ranged advantage, that is already a big advantage.
    I am one of the (generally) few players that agree with you on those points. If you browse around this forum you'll find my opinions on archers on several places. What I'm getting is that archers used to be *even more* powerful before and that they are slowly getting nerfed in some ways. I don't get the real-deal behind them being so OP (perhaps some feminist reasoning, with them being the only females in the game? ), except that it was some sort of hard-choice in designing Puncture this way; once that was made, everything started to revolve around that "anchor-point", meaning that only small non-drastic changes are acceptable.

    My proposition was to max them at 5ARM/6STR/0AB (yeah, 0AB), buff Puncture at something like +1STR/-1ARM (instead of +1/-2) and give them a 10-tile range with reduced chance-to-hit (and capped at 1STR damage +WP) beyond 5-tile range, e.g. -20% per tile. As you understand, this is way too much!

  6. #46
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Come to think about it, all MASTER-classes are supposed to be "generally" good and all-around usable. That's also the case with RM, SM and WM... The only difference I see, is that the BM's ability is not a direct improvement over her passive ability, but rather on her generic trait (ranged-attack). Well, this difference is true for the RM too, but in a smaller extend, since for him its on the same lines ("more armor"); conversely, for the BM it's on a different path ("more range").

  7. #47
    Junior Member glraven's Avatar
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    I really don't think archers are OP. With the other two, they have to get really close to attack and use puncture. In a 5 pace distance, BBs can easily get through and 1 hit is all it takes to main one.

    After the nerf SA is almost too weak. I am actually proposing adding 1 strength to their stats.
    With the SSs, you can trying to walk around the trap or just stand still the avoid them.

  8. #48
    @Space_Ghost, an arrow could piece armor that a hand axe couldn't.
    Yes, I know, thats why im saying that they could ignore some armor by a chance (piercing damage). But what is happening is that when a Varl that had 15 armor gets to 1, an archer could cause like 15 strenght damage to him (8 + 7, RANGED!) while your full melee unit with like 12 strenght could not. That sounds very awkward to me.

  9. #49
    Junior Member glraven's Avatar
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    Okay~ I know this is off topic but I am doing it because I think it's a fun conversation topic.
    Grated that I am a noob, I do archery. I think the passive skill "puncture" is really brilliant!

    The premise of puncture is that the archer has to stay put and then shoot. Consider that as the real world equivalent of a skilled archer aiming for a kill shot on someone who had his armor stripped away. In that sense it's not difficult to imagine that one shot can either severely wound or kill someone.

    in your case, full strength melee unit can also do 11 damages, which makes a lot of sense as well.

  10. #50
    Well, I'm not an archer, but for me it's still easier do open your unarmored enemy's belly from close range than aiming a vital spot in the middle of a battle. But, again, I'm not an archer to say so.

  11. #51
    Senior Member roder's Avatar
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    well I dont think stoic should be doing balancing decision on units primarily based on realism, as it is a video game. if it was realistic fighters wouldnt take wait taking turns hitting each other or you would catch on fire if you stood in slag and burn hehe it should be balancing based on actual comparison with other units lol

  12. #52
    I find it interesting how everyone thinks the sword is mightier than the arrow in real world combat. I am pretty sure that arrows killed a lot more people in battles than someone standing on foot with a sword in hand.

    And can't believe you dismissed my 7 strength idea on the merit of puncture. Pretty sure everyone thinks the SA is underpowered right? Well guess how much strength she has.

  13. #53
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tirean View Post
    I find it interesting how everyone thinks the sword is mightier than the arrow in real world combat. I am pretty sure that arrows killed a lot more people in battles than someone standing on foot with a sword in hand.
    You could be right, but that needs some historical confirmation!

    I think the main reason people prefer the sword-to-bow is the "valor" of hand-to-hand combat, where strength and speed (coincidentally prominently "male" attributes!) make all the difference. Also, another major factor in ranged-attacks is miss-chance, something far less crucial in melee-attacks.

  14. #54
    Member Yth's Avatar
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    I still think this is more a question of the overall balance between archers and melee units, not BMs specifically. All archer archetypes should be relatively balanced against each other, and archers in general should be balanced versus melee as a whole.

    If BMs receive a strong nerf, say reducing max str AND armor break, would you guys see any combination of 2 or 3 archers on a team being viable? In the interest of possible build diversity, I am more interested in bringing other archer types UP than nerfing the BMs down...

  15. #55
    You could be right, but that needs some historical confirmation!
    Indeed

    well I dont think stoic should be doing balancing decision on units primarily based on realism, as it is a video game. if it was realistic fighters wouldnt take wait taking turns hitting each other or you would catch on fire if you stood in slag and burn hehe it should be balancing based on actual comparison with other units lol
    It's not about realism, lets get back to topic, sorry everyone for causing this discussion about archery. I was talking about realism trying to make a point that is: a class that cause more damage AND is ranged, for me, is OP related to the others.

  16. #56
    Senior Member Kletian999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleonymous View Post
    You could be right, but that needs some historical confirmation!

    I think the main reason people prefer the sword-to-bow is the "valor" of hand-to-hand combat, where strength and speed (coincidentally prominently "male" attributes!) make all the difference. Also, another major factor in ranged-attacks is miss-chance, something far less crucial in melee-attacks.
    Irony to that, it took more force to draw a Longbow then it ever did to swing a sword.

  17. #57
    Irony to that, it took more force to draw a Longbow then it ever did to swing a sword.
    Yep, Bernard Cornwell said so, thats why it was so hard to be very accurate with a bow.

    The thing is, this game is not about class versus class, its about setup versus setup, I think the point have been already brought to the discussion by "Slimsy Brendan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Slimsy Platypus View Post
    • Can I leave the OP unit (Bowmasters) out of my group, and defeat a similarly skilled opponent that is using them?
    • Do the significant majority of active and experienced players use this overpowered unit(Bowmasters) in the same overall macro strategy?
    • When I play, do I see a variety of units and strategies (contrary to a dominant strategy bolstered by the capabilities of a single unit)?
    Last edited by Space_Ghost; 05-22-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  18. #58
    Senior Member Rensei's Avatar
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    I don't think archers, as a class, are in any way OP. They are just another threat, that can grow to a very serious problem if left unchecked.

    But hey - same goes for a high str warrior (if allowed to roam around the edges with no pressure), BB (biters don't kill archers, people who open paths between them do), most of the combos (if You don't see them coming and counteract) and many others. Even a lousy breaker can screw You over if not identified in time and left alone.

    A 2h axe wielding warrior IS a greater threat - he does not care about the armor and is capable of doing far greater overall damage, while archers roam around being mildly useful, hoping to take good aim.

  19. #59
    Junior Member Esth's Avatar
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    Reduction to 1 break sounds like a good change. I play double Skystriker a lot and even with a lot of break elsewhere on the team I really wish they had 2 break; so I think triple BM teams with high break frontlines will still be hurt by such a change.

  20. #60
    Member Tatski's Avatar
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    I like the idea of nerfing the BM's AB to 1. For now there's very little reason to pick SA over BM's. What makes the BM powerful is her versatility. She can deal lethal damage at a safe range or deal massive break if needed/maimed. Reducing her AB will give a niche to the SA the only archer with 2 break.

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