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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Help the younglings! -- Unit-promotion & Point-(re)distribution

  1. #1
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Exclamation Help the younglings! -- Unit-promotion & Point-(re)distribution

    Introduction -- Even though I'm a relatively experienced TBSF player, I occasionally play at "entry" power-levels, i.e. at 5-6. There, I meet a large number of new players who are missing some important facts about the game. This lack puts them at a considerable disadvantage (so making them lose more often) and potentially discourages them from sticking to the game. In view of this problem, the aim of this thread is to make some vital suggestions to make the learning-curve more steep (i.e. "learn faster") at this experience-level. This would help increase the player base at power~6 as well as make new-players more competitive.

    The Observation: A lot of new players go around with Rank1 Warmasters and Warhawks at 12STR...

    The Problem: Well, 12STR warriors are hardly menacing, even more so when they're thrown head-first in battle. I guess some top players could make such 12STR-warriors work, but it's common knowledge that STR>15 is frankly the only way to go with these units. The problem is mainly focused on warriors, since the optimal stats for all other units (archers, raiders, shieldbangers) do not deviate so much from the base-class stats-distribution.

    The Cause: It is a common misconception that the unit-stats are fixed and/or that only when promoting you can just add one point at some stat. It is not (so) clear that point redistribution can be done at any moment, after promotion to Rank>0. I think I understand the cause of this misconception: TBSF is styled (also) as an RPG; at most RPGs you don't get to change your stats, just increase them each time you level-up...

    The Suggestion: Change the promoting UI!
    1. Super-stress it, somehow, that you can redistribute points any-time any-how (withing mix/max limits) at the Proving Grounds, for any unit-Rank >0.
    2. When promoting, start-from-scratch: Set all stats at min values, so that players get the hang of this add/remove system
    3. When promoting, propose an optimum point-distribution for each unit. I believe that, apart from archers, all other units have much more willpower (WP) than they typically need. OK, this is subjective, but WMs & WHs surely need a twist in that direction.


    The Conclusion: Maybe, all this just tells us that the stats of Rank0-Warrior need tweaking!

    PS - Another "minor" problem I encounter with new players is the usage of the Horn --- they don't know (how) it works!

  2. #2
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    Less steep* is the goal, meaning the climb is easier to make. More steep means harder to climb, jankier, more frustrating

    We also should note the tutorial tells us of the stat allocation possibility + this is part of the ? help. Easiest solution would simply be to have the game force the player to put the new stat point in for all promotions, and to have the first promotion force re-stat as an additional tutorial.
    Last edited by raven2134; 05-28-2013 at 07:17 AM.

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    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    Less steep* is the goal, meaning the climb is easier to make. More steep means harder to climb, jankier, more frustrating
    Well, that's a common misconception or source of confusion, that's why I added "learn faster" ! The I meant is depicted here, where a steep curve means that "you climb more (==you learn fast) with less effort (less experience)".

    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    ...to have the first promotion force re-stat as an additional tutorial.
    That's a must! The first time you're given the Thrasher (in the tutorial), you should do this re-stating in order to formally introduce it!

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    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    I stand corrected . Thank you for enlightening me. Seems I understood it metaphorically, instead of by its empirical basis.

    Thanks for making this post, it's one of the things that admittedly becomes overlooked, yet is of great significance.

  5.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #5
    Art Director Arnie's Avatar
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    Wonderful thread that raven_carrots has brought to my attention. We will be adding a few things in the tutorials before the Saga goes live and we have a new influx of players. We will certainly look into this issue.
    Thanks for the feedback!

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    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Anytime Arnie It's always a pleasure to participate in such "help-you help-me" exchanges!

    Concerning the stats-distribution of Rank-0 Warriors, I was thinking of something like 8ARM/14STR/4WP (instead of 9ARM/12STR/5WP); with 2EX/2AB left unchanged. In this way, his STR is topped at 14 (like the SB's ARM is topped at 14), his ARM is 8 (lower than Raider's ARM, but it makes sense since he's not carrying a shield) and he's got one less WP (which is anyways replenish-able). So, Rank-0 Warriors would be much closer to contemporary WM & WH stats.

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    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    I think the default stats are good, otherwise it's harder for beginners playing basic v basic. Forcing a restat at some point could be enough?

    8/14 means careless beginners might not see the usefulness of the unit if he's consistently struck first. Or it could topple how basic plays if it kills stuff too fast cos other units have pretty low armor/str values and high WP.

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    Junior Member Orath89's Avatar
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    I agree with Aleo. I always buy new units without kills and just go for them on the field and the rank-0 warrior feels like a sort of strong raider, which is not his role in higher ranks. Maybe for new players you can insert in the initial tutorial a really small version of the "Know your unit" made by Kletian with rank-0 units (something like "leave your warrior and archers unharmed until endgame") or even set max AB for the warriors to 1 so people can more clearly understand that he's a strenght-based unit and hopefully has to be preserved in order to wreck everyone (because new players just see a big tough guy with high strenght and think "yeah, I should totally hit everyone with him right from the start and the more hits he gets to do the more I can take advantage of." and that's kinda misleading. If they see a big tough guy with 14 str, 8 arm and 3 WP they think "okay, I can wreck everything with this guy but I have use him more carefully". I don't know if this is the best psicological game around, but I think it might be a good idea
    Last edited by Orath89; 05-28-2013 at 07:43 PM.

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    Senior Member Kletian999's Avatar
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    Hmm, maybe I should do an Episode 0 thread for all the base classes. Might be fun after I finish the Warleader.

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    Senior Member Kletian999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnie View Post
    Wonderful thread that raven_carrots has brought to my attention. We will be adding a few things in the tutorials before the Saga goes live and we have a new influx of players. We will certainly look into this issue.
    Thanks for the feedback!
    Make sure you check out https://stoicstudio.com/forum/showthr...-into-Factions too Arnie/John

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    Senior Member Butters's Avatar
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    Regarding mechanics like statting, how I would go about it is flesh out that 1-screen help you get when first going into the PG, with the arrows pointing to different bits with some simple explanations. I'm pretty sure nobody reads that carefully ; I would make it come back systematically until the player actively select "do not show this again" to maximize chances to get the message across.
    For the horn, I think having to use it in an interactive tutorial is the best. I'm sure the guys are aware of the necessity of that extended (non-video) tutorial. Maybe, just maybe, AI is around the corner and will make its first appearance in a semi-scripted tutorial first fight against the AI ? That would be cool. With a full team, playing a full match, you could touch on pretty much anything including the characteristics and uses of the different base classes.

  12. #12
    Superbacker mindflare77's Avatar
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    I think an extended tutorial would be a great idea. It's been a while since I played through the current one, but I recall losing my first five or six matches and having no clue why or what I was doing wrong until someone I played against took the time explain little things (puncture, for instance, and the importance of break).

    Also, to players in general: if/when we come across the younglings who are clearly inexperienced and don't know the ropes, offer to let them kill some of your guys for the extra renown in a battle you're clearly going to win. I've done it a few times and people seem to like not only the extra renown, but also the chance for longer time to chat/learn.
    Avatar/banner done by StandSure.

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    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    They could make the stats in PG into tooltips which describe on mouse over.

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    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orath89 View Post
    ...the rank-0 warrior feels like a sort of strong raider, which is not his role in higher ranks.
    That's my impression too. I'd like to have Rank-0 excel in some particular aspect, rather than being averagely-good at everything. That way, they could be useful even in teams with higher ranked units, e.g. p6=r0+r0+r1+r1+r2+r2 configs etc. I think Rank-0 Archers are OK, for SBs I'd up their AB to 3, for Raiders I'd up their EX to 3 and for Warriors I'd boost their STR. The stat to "cut from" is WP, easily; this makes sense to me, as Rank-0 units are less experienced in battle so they're supposed to be less "willful"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kletian999 View Post
    Hmm, maybe I should do an Episode 0 thread for all the base classes.
    That would be finely done, indeed! I'm personally a fan of simplicity (i.e. more "back-to-basics", like chess), and Rank-0 units offer just that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Butters View Post
    Maybe, just maybe, AI is around the corner and will make its first appearance in a semi-scripted tutorial first fight against the AI? That would be cool.
    The interactive tutorial, even though scripted, was very helpful. A semi-scripted one, that would be even more helpful and fun. Videos are interesting and can contain more aspects, but I think that not many people use them for "tutorial" purposes...

    Quote Originally Posted by mindflare77 View Post
    Also, to players in general: if/when we come across the younglings who are clearly inexperienced and don't know the ropes, offer to let them kill some of your guys for the extra renown in a battle you're clearly going to win. I've done it a few times and people seem to like not only the extra renown, but also the chance for longer time to chat/learn.
    I do that all the time, at power-levels 4-6. It's very important to keep new-entry players satisfied and willing to continue playing. Discouraging them with a pair of Tempests in their faces and a 3minute match only leads to rage-quitting and bye-bye TBSF. Most new players I meet are generally talkative and appreciate the advice (and the kills!), especially if delivered in a "nice way".
    Last edited by Aleonymous; 05-29-2013 at 11:28 AM.

  15. #15
    Njael
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    Two more points which may be added to tutorial or help:
    1) Clicking in fight on the portrait of an unit shows it's special ability
    2) Clicking in fight on an enemy unit shows it's stats and movement range

    The reason behind is, that new players often don't know the abilities of units they haven't promoted yet and wondering, what they are able. Second point is because people often move their vulnerable units into your (extented) movement range and lose them this way.

  16. #16
    Senior Member roder's Avatar
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    I agree. I play a lot of low level players when higher queues become slow, and there are a lot of things they dont know about. Here are the top 3 things that I've come across

    #1 - Forget to restat or even add a point when they promote
    #2 - Don't know they can create a formation before the game begins
    #3 - Don't know that the Tab key (or the top right button) reveals all units stats, easier way to play

  17. #17
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njael View Post
    Two more points which may be added to tutorial or help:
    1) Clicking in fight on the portrait of an unit shows it's special ability
    2) Clicking in fight on an enemy unit shows it's stats and movement range
    Your (2) is indeed very important, and makes all-the-difference in the world for new-player battles. Especially for moves like WH charge+tempest, coincidentally, the only ability introduced at the Tutorial!

  18. #18
    Njael
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    I just realized my first point ("1) Clicking in fight on the portrait of an unit shows it's special ability") is already implemented in the ingame help (clicking the question-mark in battle).

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