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Thread: How-To Guide: Min-Max Your Unit's Stats

  1. #1
    Senior Member roder's Avatar
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    How-To Guide: Min-Max Your Unit's Stats

    How-To Guide: Min-Max Your Unit's Stats

    This is a beginner's guide on how you should generally be statting your units, some reasoning behind it and which you should choose for your team composition. These are more guidelines and goalposts, so change according to your playstyle. If you're an experienced player, this is not meant for you sorry :P I'll be using abbreviations so look them up here if you're not familiar with the terminology: https://bannersaga.wikidot.com/glossary. Skip the overview if you want to get straight down to numbers!

    Overview of Stats

    Armor: Used to mitigate damage. Usually targetted first before strength (exception generally being archers). Think of it simplified to this: Doing -4 Armor on a target, will do +4 Str damage on every subsequent str hit to it. The magic numbers are 7 and 12. Why? The most common break is 5 (BM,SA,SM) and 4 (RM,SS,BB), resulting in 7-8 leftover armor. Anything lower would give extra damage to archers and be easy targets to pick off. Is it wise to build your team around a single unit? While you may not see a BB or TH in every setup, you'll always see an armor breaking archer.

    Strength: Your Health and Damage, arguably the most important stat in the game. While its a good idea to increase str to that unit's max value, a lot of units (RM, SBs) use armor as a cushion instead.

    Willpower:
    The stat you want to minimize efficiently. You don't want a unit to die with extra WP, nor do you want to have living units with no WP. Should also consider the horn - balance the amount of units that can rely on their own WP pool and units that usually use horn for extra WP (archers, TH)

    Exertion: Another stat you want to minimize efficiently, as it is also a waste to go too high. Recommend minimum 2 on Warriors (to get first hit and ensure your warrior isn't outranged by their warrior).

    Break: Bring down enemy's armor, so your damage dealers can maximize their str damage. Because of this order, breakers (RM,SM) are usually earlier in your team's lineup, while the damage dealers are usually last. The exception to this rule is archers, who deal high AB, but then translate that armor break into high puncture str damage, so they can be put anywhere in the order.


    MIN-MAXING Attributes:


    [A] Archers


    [1] BowMaster
    (Damage Dealer, Breaker)
    -Break at distance, the longer the game goes on the stronger they get.

    Common Builds: Armor/Str/WP/Exertion/AB
    7/8/6/3/2
    -Higher break leading to Early-Mid game Puncture damage
    -common practice to leave at 7armor, since at 8/9armor enemy archers still do 1 dmg relatively safe
    7/8/7/2/2
    -Lower EX for more WP, for Mid-Late game team comp that draws out game
    8/8/6/2/2
    -Better for archer vs archer standoffs lategame

    No-No's:
    9/7/5/3/1
    -Break should always be at 2, Str should always be maxed on BM, high ex without sustainable WP

    [2] Siege Archer (Damage Dealer, Breaker)
    -Like BM, but less damage potential (7str) trade off for being unmaimable (use ability if low str)

    Common Builds: Armor/Str/WP/Exertion/AB
    7/7/7/3/2
    -Like BM but unmaimable, sometimes safer to do 2BM+SA than 3BM
    8/7/7/2/2
    -Better for longevity/late game teamp comp
    9/7/6/2/2
    -Better vs other archers, gets into range to maim them while ppl may hesitate to maim back for 80%/90%

    Out-of-Box:

    4/7/9/3/2
    -'suicidal archer',popularized by OJM, combine with WL to deal 5AB three times or sacrificed to gain turn advantage

    r2
    9/7/9/2/0
    -Use r2 ability primarily, Combine with SRM and push enemy varl onto multiple coals
    -can do up to +3str dmg on contact, then additional +3str dmg when its the varl's turn
    -good for high armor/low str varls, completely bypasses armor to kill

    [3] SkyStriker (Damage Dealer, Breaker)
    -Lower AB for more crowd/map control, very circumstantial but can block or allow for some game-changing moves.
    -Best used at r2 or r3 in combination with PK or SRM

    Common Builds: Armor/Str/WP/Exertion/AB
    7/8/8/2/1
    -Standard spec, high WP for RoA early game and AB when gap is closed
    7/8/8/3/0
    -No break, in favor of higher damage potential, reliant on AB-heavy team comp

    r3
    7/8/10/2/1
    -Used in what I call the "Rain of Malice" combo, Place r3 arrow, use PK to move target onto it.
    -Even better to use 2 SS and place two r3 arrows on same tile
    8/8/8/3/1
    -AP's build, A more diverse SS that isnt as reliant on Malice combo


    [B.] Raiders


    [1] Raidmaster (Breaker, DD)
    -Safe advance, support own unit wall protecting your archers or flank to maim enemy archers

    Common Builds: Armor/Str/WP/Exertion/AB
    12/9/4/1/3
    -Standard breaker, high survivability to continue to break as long as possible
    12/7/5/2/3
    -Higher break for less survivability, requires good positioning and shieldwall procs
    10/12/4/1/2
    -Anti-archer unit, continue to stonewall and advance till you reach enemy archers
    -good in combination with SRM for push through enemy varl wall

    r2
    12/8/5/2/3
    -very good breaker
    12/12/4/1/1
    -mini-varl

    [2] Thrasher
    (DD, Hybrid)
    -Deal str damage early game, transitions to flail mid-game, still good vs archers, unmaimable

    Common Builds: Armor/Str/WP/Exertion/AB
    10/12/4/2/1
    -good for early game and first hits on warrior
    10/12/4/1/2
    -1WP can do 3AB or flail for 3-4 stat dmg, but this is better vs SBs who are anti-flail

    r2
    9/12/4/3/2
    -AP's TH build, very intimidating and can threaten from long distances

    [3] Backbiter
    (DD, Hybrid)
    -Anti-archer but requires good positioning and sometimes enemy mistakes
    very good at r3. more of a jack-of-all-trades but doesnt excel at anything

    Common Builds: Armor/Str/WP/Exertion/AB
    11/10/4/1/3
    12/9/4/1/3
    -acts like raidmaster breaker, but trades safe advance for potential runthroughs
    12/10/4/1/2
    11/10/4/2/2
    -Wait for opening, one way trip to shoot at archers, when maimed do AB instead

    r3
    11/10/6/2/2
    -good all-around, can limit enemy archer movement greatly

    [C] Shieldbangers

    [1] Shieldmaster (Meatshield, Breaker)
    -Break, survive as long as possible, try to make attacks less desirable under RtF

    Common Builds: Armor/Str/WP/Exertion/AB
    16/10/3/1/3
    16/9/3/1/4

    Out-of-Box:
    15/13/3/1/1
    -used as pseudo-warrior, use RtF when expecting incoming damage
    -truthfully not as effective, but will always catch ppl offguard expecting a breaker

    [2] Strongarm (Meatshield, Hybrid, DD)
    -Either used as crowd-control/breaker or pseudo-warrior

    Common Builds: Armor/Str/WP/Exertion/AB
    12/15/3/2/1
    14/14/3/1/1
    -Used like a warrior, with less movement range, requires good positioning/shuffling
    15/12/3/1/2
    -Used as meatshield

    [3] Provoker (Meatshield, Breaker)
    -Best used as crowdcontrol/meatshield, good combo with SS
    17/10/3/1/2
    17/11/3/1/1
    -Instead of doing -4AB to you, prevents enemy breaker from doing -4AB to you (by provoking)
    -if wanting 3AB, I'd reason that SM is a better choice but Malice does provide more options
    16/10/4/1/3
    -AP's build for PK if you'd like a more diverse multi-role PK

    [D] Warriors

    [1] Warhawk
    (Damage Dealer)
    -Get in deep and twirl baby twirl.

    Common Builds: Armor/Str/WP/Exertion/AB
    9/16/3/2/1
    -2ex for first hit and boxing out enemy warriors, 3WP required to tempest after 2ex movement
    10/16/3/1/1
    -avoids earlygame, kept safe at distance until you have good turn advantage

    [2] Warmaster
    (Damage Dealer)
    -less maimable than other 2 warriors, better suited for early-mid game rather than waiting for turn advantage end-game

    Common Builds: Armor/Str/WP/Exertion/AB
    10/16/3/2/1
    9/17/3/1/1
    -standard, OK to keep safe till end-game but less chance for grouped-up SI hits

    [3] Warleader (Damage Dealer)
    -Very niche unit, used in combination with breaker(generally archers),PK, or 2nd warrior

    Common Builds: Armor/Str/WP/Exertion/AB
    9/15/4/2/1
    10/15/4/2/0
    -maximize dmg but easily maimable

    No-No's:
    10/12/4/1/4
    -Don't use warrior as breaker, better off using SBs which have 2 more stat point
    Last edited by roder; 12-04-2013 at 03:06 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member roder's Avatar
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    Thoughts on Team Comp & Stages of Game(p6, p12)

    This is a high simplification of how the stages of a match proceed, at least in my experience.

    Early Game: Move to meet in center, advancing RM/SBs (what I like to call Initiators) to establish wall, shuffling primary targets (Archers,Warrior) in effective range but out of danger. Effective use of breakers on immediate threats, while ensuring your primary threats arent broken.
    Mid Game: 1-2 Initiators have been killed, aggregate armor has been lowered but also relative strength lowered to compensate. Archers are gaining in puncture strength, maiming them is a priority, while leaving other maimed units alive to prevent them gaining turn advantage for what I like to call the Finishers (Archers, Varls)
    End Game: Usually the finishers are left and 1-2 maimed units, an archer vs archer standoff is common and whoever has kept their primary finishers most untouched wins.

    Here is a good checklist for good team composition:
    -healthy balance of breakers and damage dealers (breakers first, damage dealers later in order)
    -minimize maimable units (e.g. use TH instead of BB, SA stead of BM) or have 2AB if maimed
    -have some unit combo synergy (PK+SS,3BM,SRM+RM)

    P6 Team Compositions
    Take, for example, some standard p6 team comps

    Example 1: P6 Team
    This is a quick blitz team I use, a variant of (credit to) the original Butters build.

    SA>WL>TH>RM>BM>WH
    -SA>WL>SA combo speeds up early game phase, by essentially having 2 initial breaks without investing in 2 actual break units
    -TH comes in to attack AB-targetted unit
    -RM comes in to break any units that come to aid first target or supports TH with shieldwall
    -BM breaks for upcoming WH
    -WH comes in and tries to hit their primary responders
    -WH>WL>WH combo leads to two tempest following each other, with only 1 unit able to respond/block path if you choose to do it

    Strengths: Quickens early game to dominate mid game, good vs late-game teams that don't reach their potential
    -Good vs slow movement team comps (double SB) that are slow to respond
    Weaknesses: Lose if unable to reach mid game quick enough or allow multiple units to become maimed (WL,WH,BM)
    -Relies heavily on first turn advantage, if gets second turn, then SA has to deal with three potential units interrupting her before doing second break
    -Just put formation in back corner pocket to avoid SA first break if they get first turn

    Example 2: P6 Team
    RM>RM>SM>BM>BM>SRM
    This is a lategame comp, trying to keep tanky breakers alive long enough to ensure archers have sufficient puncture damage. Also SRM is a better lategame finisher than warriors imo, but suffers from mid-game limited range to serve as support/threat.

    Strengths: Can wreck SM walls that protect backline with high break
    -Overwhelm enemy with multiple immediate but also tanky threats
    Weaknesses: Put formation farther back to the side, make RM waste a WP advancing
    -If archers are maimed, low relative strength to finish job

    P12 Team Compositions

    The difference between p6 and p12 matches is only 6 stat points. But the common places to put that extra stat point is armor and WP for armorbreak. Generally: warriors take armor since their str is already maxed at r1, PK/SRM take armor, SM/RM takes WP for AB, TH/BB take either as hybrids. As you can see, the armor and armor-break are increased for p12, so it is even more important to keep your primary threats alive while concentrating focusfire on theirs. I also believe that warriors early effectiveness are lessened and even more viable to keep them on backline. As for heightened primary threats, you can leave some units at r1 while putting others (varls,BB) at r3. For example, r1BM r3BB is good since BM rarely uses r2 BoP while BB drastically increases in power with each rank.

    Example 1: P12 Team
    RM>PK>BM>SRM>BM>BM

    A variant of my P6 build, I switch out SM for PK because I would rather use 1WP to prevent 5AB, than trade 5AB for 5AB since my varl wall is more important in a 3BM formation. SRM for crowdcontrol and maiming down AB-targetted units. 3BM formations are very straightforward, play safe distance game, dont waste WP on movement and you're pretty much secured a win if it comes to late-game unless they're doing the same strategy!


    Anyway, those are some common builds and team comps found at p6 and p12. This guide has gone well over what I expected it to be so I'm just going to end it abruptly here lol
    Last edited by roder; 06-02-2013 at 08:36 AM.

  3. #3
    Factions veteran stoicmom's Avatar
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    Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! All of this information has been in some form by way of chat or posts and you have clearly compiled and communicated the information so that even I get it

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    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Very interesting (and thorough) thread rodereve. Thanks! You provide considerable insight into the stats distribution, and I particularly appreciated the example teams and strategies.


    [3] Warleader (Damage Dealer)
    No-No's:
    10/15/4/1/4
    -Don't use warrior as breaker, better off using SBs which have 2 more stat point
    Experience has shown that WLs as breakers and no-good, but I continue to believe in their potential... It's true that seeing this 4AB on a WL, makes him a prime candidate for fast elimination. So, he's gotta be played as a reserve unit, safekept in the back for endgame, where 4AB with a live archer is priceless!

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    Senior Member Butters's Avatar
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    Great post !

    @Aleo : a backline breaker makes no sense. As much as I would like to see the breaker WL work, I think Rodereve is right, he doesn't.
    The part I disagree with is the 12/12/4/1/1 RM, which I would be very happy to see my opponent using. A breakless RM spells disaster for your endgame. Then again I never used or even encountered it, maybe it works somehow?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Kletian999's Avatar
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    I think the numbers are too high for 10/15/4/1/4 Warleader breaker hypothetical, perhaps you meant 10/12/4/1/4 (rank 1) or even 10/10/5/2/4?

    Rod, you are welcome to add links to my "know the units" threads for each unit if you'd like. I feel the build analysis you have here was something I was having trouble expressing cogently.

  7. #7
    Member AnotherPersona's Avatar
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    Rank 2 BM - 9/8/6/2/2, for break builds, good endgame.

    As for your Rank 3 SS, I disagree - 8/8/8/3/1 she has more survivability and you'll rarely have an opportunity to get off more than 2 rank 3 RoAs Unless you build very specific and the opponent complies with your wishes. xD Plus that 4 Arm break can be essential when RoA is not such a good idea.

    As for the Thrasher, another good build is 9/12/4/3/2 for rank 2, that 3 movement can be intimidating and is excellent for maiming/taking out an archer, or maiming a broken Warrior, especially if they are within 4 spaces, easy to do 5 to 10 dmg.

    The rank 2 SB can also be run 15/9/4/2/4, which gives movement, which can be essential, and potential for 6 arm bk on a high value target, or forcing them to hit a lvl 2 BtP, or pass their turn.


    I run my PK - 16/10/4/1/3, I believe you are quite wrong in not giving him armor break, it is essential for mid-to-end game, otherwise he is maimed and useless, but hitting for 3 AB and having RtF can be very nice, so he has to be killed, so you get more turn advantage or at least equal the turns out.

  8. #8
    Backer Slimsy Platypus's Avatar
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    This is a really cool thread!

    Most of it I'm in absolute agreement with. The Provoker builds had me scratching my head though. Dropping break because you will be using Malice makes sense in theory, but I'd argue that in practice it doesn't work out well. If your provoker has low STR and can't break armor, using your turn to Malice simply ends up stalling the game and doesn't help you achieve your end goal of reducing your opponent's health to zero. What I mean by this, is that you are using your turn for your opponent to not use a turn. Unless you are preventing a large STR hit, in most cases you could just use that slot for a different Shieldbanger or Warrior and just do something better.

    By adding break you essentially get an out. Worst case scenario is that your best move is a break for four, which is pretty decent. In my opinion, if you lower a unit's break and perform an armor break attack even once in a match, an additional point in break should be used. However, when you start statting those wonky Warleaders, you end up with the armor break / STR tradeoff, in which I think stacking more STR rather than break in justified. In most other cases I think the best option is to max break.

    But hey, that's just my take on it.

  9. #9
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kletian999 View Post
    Rod, you are welcome to add links to my "know the units" threads for each unit if you'd like. I feel the build analysis you have here was something I was having trouble expressing cogently.
    Kletian, you can "spice up" your threads a bit by (1) using some sort of formating, e.g. bold/italics, colors, line-separators etc, (2) inserting some images, e.g. use the hard-linked ones from the wiki-sites (portraits).

    I'm thinking of linking each one of your threads to the respective page in the wikidot unit-pages. Its a very useful, in-depth read!

  10. #10
    Senior Member roder's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the feedback. I actually intended this thread to be more of a discussion of what are the viability of the ones i listed and the ones I missed. I'll add a build based on AP and Slimsy advice on PK, considering they probably have more experience using him.

    But I'm still sticking behind my theory that SM would be a better choice if you were using 3AB, because then you'd just use PK for breaking instead of his main role, malicing and crowd control. He's also unmaimable in theory, I just malice and make them kill him off when hes low.

    @Kletian - thanks for the catch

    @Butters - true that RM build is likely maimable, but so are most warriors so you'd have to be a bit more safe with him. I've seen it be pretty effective in triple raider builds where 1 is offensive and 2 are breakers, very hard to break down especially when they all advance under shieldwall chain.

    @AP - nice alternative SS build, yeah I only wanted to showcase the r3 RoA/malice combo build, since I see Slimsy own with it everytime I go onto his stream heh although would it be wise to invest in r3 SS if you aren't going heavy with RoM combo, probably better off with r2 SS?

    -Feel free to suggest more build paths and their reasoning
    Last edited by roder; 06-03-2013 at 08:21 AM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Kletian999's Avatar
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    I think the "archer killer" Raidmaster should have 2 exertion to reach them faster/maim more. I also don't see the value in giving a backbiter 12/arm with 9 str instead of 11/10- unless you are being attacked by a 13+ str unit it's better damage with the same survivability.

  12. #12
    I am of the opinion that a high strength Shieldmaster, should have 4 armor break and lower armor. 14/12 (15/12), 13/13 (14/13). Than you are able to be a menacing terror and able to break amicably and if you are let free, show some terror. Than he is better maimed and poses all kind of trouble. Without armor break it only takes two shots from archer to make him less viable.

  13. #13
    Njael
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    Good compilation rodereve!

    I play my BB with 10/10/4/2/3, 3 break makes him usefull, even when maimed. Two exertion increases dmg or break when used, that's why 4 WP Also my RM are at 10/10/4/2/3, with acitve shieldwall, they have a "base armor" of 13, so only a few units do dmg without ex to them. For wp,ab, ex see the reasons from the bb And I like my PV with 15/11/3/1/3, adding WP with promotion. The 11 STR makes them still a good offensive unit in endgame, when leaving relatively untouched. Also they hit archers for 3/4 (+1) str-dmg with the first hit, which is very good imo. But 3 AB is a must have on this unit.

    I really do like your explanation of early/mid/end-game! But there is one thing, which I think is very importand, don't rely on your finishers ;D Maybe an example, if I face a team with two RM (~7 STR), two SM (~8 STR) and two BM, I'm willing to sacrifice 1-2 units to kill/main the BM because the low strength units will take a long way to kill my units. That is the point quite often mentioned here -> All your units should be able to fight on their own.

    Again, great work and Thanks for starting this discussion!

  14. #14
    Member Tatski's Avatar
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    Great post! I think r2 BM's can afford to have 1 break in exchange for armor on. having 9 armor will discourage BBs to spend extra WP just to runthrough her . It depends on the team build.. Used to run BMs with 1 break with a high break team 2BB and 1 PK with TH as a hp damager/breaker and WH,SA as sweepers.

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