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Thread: Vigrid Tournament Season II planning : let's decide on the format and rules

  1. #1
    Senior Member Butters's Avatar
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    Vigrid Tournament Season II planning : let's decide on the format and rules

    Vigrid Season I is (finally) coming to an end with only 3 matches left to play in both leagues combined. It's time to prepare for Season II ! This thread is to decide on the how of things, based on the experience of Season I.

    Tournament format :
    This time I want to make groups. This gives more leeway in match scheduling, makes sure that everyone gets a fair number of matches, and it is an opportunity to divide the player into regional groups, therefore mitigating the difficulties of matches across half the planet's timezones. It is also a way to accommodate player numbers that are not 8/16/32.
    With group rounds, everybody will have at least 3/4 matches, so I think after that direct elimination rather than double elimination is probably a more straightforward and manageable way to do it.
    So the ladder might look something like this :

    [Group 1 : US] [Group 2 : US2] [Group 3 : EU] [Group 4 : Asia ?] (4~5 players per group)

    Code:
    1st of G1___
    2nd of G2   |
                |-semifinals_
    1st of G2___|            |
    2nd of G1                |
                             |-Finals
    1st of G3___             |
    2nd of G4   |            |
                |-semifinals_|
    1st of G4___|
    2nd of G3
    If two groups are of the same region, we can keep up to the semi-finals as a regional league, up the the Intercontinental Finals
    Another possibility is groups + double elimination, where the third of each group goes to the bottom of the losers bracket.

    Regarding grouping : Regionals mean that there is very little seeding going on. If there is only one EU group, you are guaranteed to be in the one with Tirean (lucky you !). If there are two EU or two US groups (either will happen, possibly both) then there's the question of how to separate players between them. Maybe group by higher and lower Elo ranking.

    Rensei had a cool suggestion about a modified Round Robin system in chat, I can't dig it up right now. A link would be cool - please, Mrs Awesome
    Last edited by Butters; 06-06-2013 at 10:37 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Rensei's Avatar
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    In SC2 community it's known as MSL, GSL or Dual Tournament format.

    It became popular after one player (which everybody in EU wanted to see win at least one game, even though he was already out) played like shit on purpose in his last group match (he was battling for the 3rd place in 4 man group - no promotion or prize attached).

    RULES (copied, so don't worry about RoXX, and CodeY):
    - Best of 3.
    - The 4 players of each group are split into two pairs and play each other.
    - The winners of these matches will then face each other in the Winner’s match. The victor places first in the group and advances to the Ro16.
    - The losers of the initial matches face each other in the Loser’s match. The loser places fourth in the group, will fall to Code A Ro48.
    - The loser of the Winner’s match and the winner of the Loser’s match will face each other in a fifth match. The winner gets second place in the group and advances to the Ro16. The loser places third in the group and will fall to Code A Ro32.



    It's being used at both Ro32 and Ro16 of CodeS (premier league) and CodeA (challenger league) tournaments.

    If You feel like it, we could copy it bit more for Vigrid #3 and create our own CodeS(power 12) and CodeA(power 6). This way the advanced players and champions from previous ones would have to loose a lot to drop out completely (dropping out from P12 would put You in P6 with the new guys, who would be fighting for the exclusive P12 spots).
    Last edited by Rensei; 06-07-2013 at 05:48 AM.

  3. #3
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rensei View Post
    In SC2 community it's known as MSL, GSL or Dual Tournament format.
    I think that this tournament-system is a little too complicated. I can understand its usefulness when applied to a large tournament, with vastly different levels of player experience. It built some that every match matters and everybody gets some sort of second chance, or, if a players is strong, he/she advances faster towards the final.

    Butters' initial proposal, about grounds and then knock-out stage is a lot "cleaner" to me. However, group stages normally require a strict criteria for tie-breaking, and potentially make (as Rensei puts it) poor players lose interest. This is bad in two ways: a player gets disappointed, his dispirited performance on the last group-matches can decide the winner of the group...

    So, for Butter's format:
    (1) Are you proposing singe-matches in the groups, i.e. a total of N*(N-1)/2 matches for a N-player group? What criteria for tie-breaking? For a two-player tie, a Bo3 could work, or a single decider match. For a tie among more that three players? Keeping track of kills or something?
    (2) Double-matches in the groups [N*(N-1) matches for an N-player group], will lead to more games (takes longer!) but can limit the ties, I think. In this kind of system, I've proposed some sort of home/away match emulation, where the home teams gets a small power-advantage (e.g. p12-vs-p11).

  4. #4
    Senior Member Kletian999's Avatar
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    While I'm not interested in having deliberate handicaps take place for home/away teams, I am looking forward to either single or double elimination group matching. The tournament was more exciting when there were more people in it, so perhaps it could start with doubles then go down to singles at the higher tiers?

  5. #5
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    Hi all.

    First, I think there are at least as much EU players as there are US, so grouping should be at least equal for US and EU. Nevertheless it's decided after all players are submitted to draw.
    Second, I'm really keen to see double elimination again, as it gives second chance in knockout phase (hasn't helped me though ), but if we are using groups, everyone will get at least 3 games to play (4 players; more games if more players are per group), so a simple swiss system for knockout phase should be enough and quick, as there are all time zones involed and the less matches are played between different time zones - the better.
    Third, we are not really restricted to 4 or 5 players per group if the group is of a single timezone (or close to it). It can be as much players as we need. Also we can have all the playerbase involved in tournament split between, for example, 3 parts, each of them having it's own grouping; how much players are through from each group is decided by the playercount in the whole part.

    Example: If there are say 10 american players, 12 europeans and 5 asians, we can have 2 5-player groups for US, 3 4-player groups for EU and 1 5-player group for Asia.
    Winner of each US group goes through, third player is decided between those placed second in groups. 3 group winners go from EU and 1-2 placed go from Asia, all in all 8 players for a knockout phase.
    Thus, the structure is flexible and can have any number of players, still resulting in a 8-player knockout. It's like region qualifying with a super-final knockout in the end; we can also have a region winner to hail this way. And also it looks like a World Cup qualifying + final in the old days of 50ies when there was just a swiss system in the final stage without groups.
    Last edited by netnazgul; 06-08-2013 at 07:43 AM.
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  6. #6
    Member AnotherPersona's Avatar
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    I want in! I'm in the USA, Michigan. I haven't read all this yet, I shall later, just had jump around and wave my hands real quick. ^^

    EST, I'll do both P6 and P12 if able/allowed. xD
    Last edited by AnotherPersona; 06-08-2013 at 01:41 PM.

  7. #7
    I am interested. I am a european, at GMT. P12 would interest my more.

  8. #8
    Are there some news on this tournament?

    I would like to participate too. GMT+04:00h

  9. #9
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Vigrid master-coordinator, Butters, is kinda inactive lately. Also, there's the final matches to be played for Vigrid I tournament that keep getting postponed or are plainly refrigerated!

    Lets wait and hear. It's good that we have new eager players to join

  10. #10
    Senior Member Butters's Avatar
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    Apologies, I have indeed been pretty much absent from Factions in the last few weeks.
    The recent birth of my daughter is not unrelated ( ), but neither is the fact that I spend what little gaming time I have left on Scrolls, tbh. I do hope we can get Vigrid Season 2 started soon-ish, but I'll probably not be participating in that one.

  11. #11
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters View Post
    The recent birth of my daughter is not unrelated ( )
    Wow, congratulations, man! I don't know the correct wishes, neither in English nor in French, so I'll just go with the Greek ones: "Να σας ζήσει, να την χαίρεστε, υγεία, καλορίζικη", loosely translated as "may she have a long life, enjoy her, good health, good fortune".

    So, who'll step up to organize the next Vigrid? Is that Tirean I see shifting in back rows, or netnazgul?

  12. #12
    Factions veteran stoicmom's Avatar
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    Congratulations Butters, and to your wife, on the birth of your baby girl

  13. #13
    Member SeraphimLoki's Avatar
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    was wating for the second one for ages...
    Count me in, in both p6 and 12.
    I'm CET -Central Europe Time.
    Last edited by SeraphimLoki; 07-02-2013 at 09:19 AM.

  14. #14
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    I can organize the tournament cause it's really not so difficult
    Although I'm not certain that tournament can be filled with people in Factions' current state of popularity. So maybe it would be wise to wait until saga ships (in fact if I were paid a dollar for every time I say "when saga ships" I'd be rich already) and population spurs up a little, together with some old players coming back.
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  15. #15
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    For now player pool looks like this
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1E&usp=sharing

    upd: I hope we could have enough players to set 2+ groups and split the pool by timezones to better accomodate first matches. Then winners/2nd-placed are through to super final set in single elimination system (so that it's again easier to commence matches between players in very different timezones).
    So what I'm planning to organize can be read several posts back in this topic.
    Last edited by netnazgul; 07-02-2013 at 02:57 PM.
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  16. #16
    Member AnotherPersona's Avatar
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    I can play still, though I don't play too often lately (Card Hunter!). On the weekends I can usually accommodate any time zone. Maybe waiting for SP is a good idea as well, everyone will be back after it is released, due to the new units. It will make it very interesting.

  17. #17
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by netnazgul View Post
    So maybe it would be wise to wait until saga ships (in fact if I were paid a dollar for every time I say "when saga ships" I'd be rich already) and population spurs up a little, together with some old players coming back.
    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherPersona View Post
    Maybe waiting for SP is a good idea as well, everyone will be back after it is released, due to the new units. It will make it very interesting.
    Waiting for (1) the Saga to ship, (2) for the players -old & new- to quench their thirst on it, and (3) for them to get hungry and shift back to Factions... Well, this could take a year or something, for the next Vigrid to happen!

    Perhaps even a mini-Vigrid, with all those active enough to get it thru fast. Two-three groups, Europe/America, should do it. For the Europeans, I can easily count ~8 persons to fill two groups.

    I'll be available for matches all thru the summer, with a 10-day break at start-of-August.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Kuba's Avatar
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    I probably won't participate in Vigrid II. Lot of stuff to do during summer and no PC and internet connection available.

  19. #19
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    This thread is worth being upped.

    Come on, people, let's play another tournament!
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  20. #20
    Member AnotherPersona's Avatar
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    I do believe the collective sigh was towards SP release, Net.

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