Insane Viking Pack Pre-Order Now Available

[quartex]

I have no problem with Stoic offering a discount when pre-ordering a game. It's a standard way to allow fans to get a discount for ordering the game early.

It's the practice of offering exclusive content for pre-orders that make me unhappy. I understand the reasoning behind it, but not matter how non-essential the content is, I don't like the idea of some people getting to play a game with more functionality because they purchased the game before it was released. I agree we're making a mountain out of a molehill, but it's be happier if everyone had access to the same game. Why is adding extra music tracks or wallpapers okay, but adding a character to the game not okay? I admit it's an arbitrary distinction, but the former feels like extra items unconnected to the game, and the latter feel like altering the gameplay experience itself. I guess I don't like the idea of saying to a friend, I like playing with this Tryggvi character, oh but you can't get him because you didn't pre-order the game, and he's no longer available.

Just my 2 cents.

[Yellow]

Stoic is trying to reward followers of the game INCLUDING non kickstarters, by DECREASING the price on the pre-order which (from my understanding)

That is all fine and i have never said i have an issue with the pre-order being cheaper, neither i have an issue with the extra material like the soundtrack, that is all very good!

Yet, here they have been labeled as "dishonest", using "bad business practices", "bad", and guility of "alienating" players.

Sadly, offering a full character(no matter how irrelevant) made pre-release, as a pre-order exclusive is a way of alianating anyone who purchases the game post release. As they are not getting a full product

Is like me buying a brand new car for full price, and not geting any seats. While you can drive the car around with no issues even with no seats, it does not feels very confortable does it?

I see it as a way for them to reward those that have followed the game closely, but have not been able to participate in the Kickstarter.

But just becouse someone decides to wait until release date to buy a product, does that means they have not been following the game closely?

This is an argument that has been discussed in way too many forums, just because i love a brand, does not means i have to give them my money for something that is not out in the market yet, why should i? Even if i trust a studio, like i did with Bioware, with Maxis, with CA, does that means trust can not be lost? that i have to be a loyal subject even after they betray my trust?

The issue with Stoic is that they are not even a known studio, they have not released a single product yet(exept for FTP factions), why then should i trust blindly in that the game is gona be good? I do wish and hope for it to be good, am almost certain that it will be, and i don't mind spending 10bucks more if i dont pre-order, i do however mind that even if i am paying 10 bucks more, i will not be geting the FULL PRODUCT.

[Jorgensager]

Yellow / Jorgensager - I now understand the argument of why the pre-order system can be bad when developers use it as a tool to get people to buy their games that may not have gotten it otherwise after reading a review. Regardless if we agree that it's a bad business practice, I do not understand why it is an issue specifically in this case: Stoic is trying to reward followers of the game INCLUDING non kickstarters, by DECREASING the price on the pre-order which (from my understanding) will nullify most anti-preorder arguments (they obviously aren't out to take more money from anxious gamer's pockets). Yet, here they have been labeled as "dishonest", using "bad business practices", "bad", and guility of "alienating" players.

Simply for my understanding and to keep the conversation constructive: can you explain to me why in this instance, Stoic's preorder is "dishonest", "bad business practice" or just "bad". For me personally, I see it as a way for them to reward those that have followed the game closely, but have not been able to participate in the Kickstarter. Why is providing a $5.00 discount, and an additional non-essential character alienating players? (is it because you feel like you can't preorder because most preorders are bad, although this one might not be?)

I seriously don't understand how this is dishonest or bad business practice. Can you help me understand why?

For me personally it makes no difference because the game looks great and I want it, so I have preordered (so I don't forget about it). My opinion is that this should be the reason for preordering. If other incentives are provided, then that is good as long as the incentives are actually direct incentives for the player, rather than a list of things they will miss out on if they don't pay upfront.

I think I've been constructive in my previous posts and explained why I don't think the content works as a purely friendly incentive, but I can repeat myself: There is no good reason to restrict content which has been developed and implemented by the time of release to those who preorder. This is not providing additional content to preorders, but restricting those who buy post-release. Additionally, Stoic has pointed out that the content is irrelevant for the game experience, which makes me think that it is slightly dishonest to use it as an incentive to buy the game in the first place and to include it in the Insane Viking Pack (because the name implies that it is special). Conclusion; If I hadn't known anything about the game or its developers, I probably wouldn't have bought it because of this. In my current position, however, I wouldn't have to deal with the sneaking doubt and uncomfortable feeling (by association to regular DLC-hells), however tiny, if they could refrain from restricting the extra content to preorders, so I hope they will consider this in the future.

I believe my position when it comes to this specific case is quite different from that of Yellow, and I hope that is also clear from my other posts in this thread.

[Slimsy Platypus]

Thanks guys for the response. I do find the conversation very interesting.

@Yellow - I do understand your point on alienating players better now and I do agree that portions of that argument are valid. It does suck when you learn about a game late and miss out on pre-order exclusives, especially if there is some type of advantage during the game that you will have giving you a better chance of success if you've gotten it. Although, I'm not sure we can definitively say that this is a real problem as none of us know what type of advantage Trygvvi (or whatever his name is) will bring at this point. At face value were getting another character that we know is not exclusive in his abilities and we know we will have as many as 25 characters and only be able to use 6 at a time; those indicators make me sort of think that he is almost a near cosmetic choice, but obviously the verdict's still out.

I certainly don't want to argue for argument sake, but I don't think your car analogy is spot on, as seats are a requirement to drive a car. Maybe a better analogy might be saying the preorder deal is more like getting your car without a stereo or sunroof, as certainly people who don't preorder are still going to be able to drive their car down the street (i.e. they're going to be able to play the game).

I really don't want to start a non-constructive argument, but when you respond to me stating that in my opinion I think "I see it as a way for them to reward those that have followed the game closely, but have not been able to participate in the Kickstarter" by implying that I mean if you haven't preordered you haven't been following the game... I don't think I need to state that that doesn't seem like a logical conclusion from what I have said. That response makes me think you just want to argue over semantics rather than an issue at hand - which is fine, but probably not going to help convince anyone of anything.

@Jorgensager - I certainly wasn't trying to imply that your responses weren't constructive, and I'm sorry if I did! I was more referring to the statements along the lines of "X, Y, or Z is some-negative-adjective" that didn't have any reason or argument attached to it as I am trying to get up to speed with all this. After reading your response I actually do agree with everything you said in that last post, and thanks for summing it all up so well!


As a final note: my first reaction to the pre-order was "wow this is cool, but some people are going to hate it". There just is such a strong hatred for "DAY 1 DLC" because of all the issues we touched on in this thread. One day if I have to reinstall The Saga, or for some other reason have to play it from a platform other than my pre-ordered code - sure, it's going to suck and I might even curse the old gods! I'm a completionist when I play games, and I like to have everything, which makes me sympathetic to portions of the argument that this is "bad". But in the end, when I think of this in a vacuum: that being the inclusion of a pre-order discount and some exclusive soundtracks and a character - I just don't see Stoic maniacally laughing behind their desks somewhere because they have plotted to screw over powerless gamers. I just don't believe that's the case. So it's hard for me to put my foot down and say "hey! this is bad", because I honestly think it's kind of good. Aleonymous (and all the others like him) - a backer that learned of the Saga's existence too late, is going to get an exclusive character and some stuff. I just see it as a way of saying thanks to those people who have helped develop this community and support the origins of Stoic (in more ways than simply monetarily). To me, that's not "bad". Regarding everything else, I think we can happily agree to disagree

[Yellow]

@Slimsy Platypus

The car analogy was not very good yea, i merely used it because of Myll_Erik had made one similar earlier, the stereo/speakers example that you mentioned is more fitting, yes!
Also, sorry if i gave you the impression that i am just arguing for the same of arguing, i am not, but after 10+ comments(most of them a somewhat repetitive) on the matter one tends to loose it a bit, and gets a bit annoyed, sorry if i sounded hostile to you or any other, that was not my intention.

[loveboof]

The game is (likely) well worth the money be it by preorder or post-release purchase for the art, gameplay and story, so it had no impact on my decision. In my opinion, they would have been better off emphasising these aspects to imply that the game is different, as opposed to giving the impression that they are preparing the industry-standard hidden-costs-DLC-hell (because I don't think that's the case). My point was that it makes Stoic appear worse than they are, and might have been a mistake independent of their intentions since it could scare people away.

The discount is a decent incentive to preorder (in addition to how awesomely promising the game looks!), while the additional* content has been stated to be irrelevant for the game experience, hence seems slightly dishonest as part of the Insane Viking Pack. Additionally the restriction of this irrelevant content to people who buy the game post-release seems rather pointless.. and if they proceed to release it as DLC later, they will definitely lose some respect with me, but I'm not going to make that assumption! I just wanted to point it out so that they could refrain from it in the future.

* It's obviously not really additional since it is ready on release, i.e. rather a restriction on the post-release version (which, to repeat myself, I find counter-productive).

Well if you don't like the pre-order incentive and will lose respect for Stoic if they release Tryggvi as DLC later, they're kinda 'damned if they do, damned if they don't' now (that they have advertised the insane viking pack) right? What if there was eventually DLC of multiple completely new characters, of which Tryggvi was simply one of many?

On the whole though, I think I agree with everything you said above tbh. But...

For me personally, I see it as a way for them to reward those that have followed the game closely, but have not been able to participate in the Kickstarter.

This is exactly how it feels for me! I am happy to forego my general preference for avoiding pre-orders in this instance because I feel supportive of this company & game, but missed out on the kickstarter.
___________

Is like me buying a brand new car for full price, and not geting any seats.

I think it's more like losing out on an extra cup holder lol, but if it has to be the seats, maybe the colour scheme or fabric or something? :P

[Jorgensager]

Thanks guys for the response. I do find the conversation very interesting.

@Jorgensager - I certainly wasn't trying to imply that your responses weren't constructive, and I'm sorry if I did! I was more referring to the statements along the lines of "X, Y, or Z is some-negative-adjective" that didn't have any reason or argument attached to it as I am trying to get up to speed with all this. After reading your response I actually do agree with everything you said in that last post, and thanks for summing it all up so well!

If it was unclear I thank you for letting me know and am glad I could clarify!

I could probably also mention that phrases like "make Stoic seem worse than they are" are relative, where "worse" does not imply bad. I rather tried to state the opposite, from a "please don't scare people away since there is nothing to be afraid of"-point-of-view (and can see that that is not necessarily obvious, depending on how you read).

Well if you don't like the pre-order incentive and will lose respect for Stoic if they release Tryggvi as DLC later, they're kinda 'damned if they do, damned if they don't' now (that they have advertised the insane viking pack) right? What if there was eventually DLC of multiple completely new characters, of which Tryggvi was simply one of many?

On the whole though, I think I agree with everything you said above tbh.

(...) I am happy to forego my general preference for avoiding pre-orders in this instance because I feel supportive of this company & game, but missed out on the kickstarter.

I think the content (Tryggvi) was a bad idea as incentive (though rather harmless in the current implementation), and it might cause them trouble, but I certainly hope it does not, since I care about their success and the game's quality. The problem as I see it is if they crank this up a notch in the saga part 2 release, for example, which is why I urge them to avoid that now, well ahead of time. But yes, from my strict interpretation, they are slightly 'damned since they won't' now (that they have advertised the insane viking pack).

If they eventually develop some actual game content as DLC and decide to throw him in as well (as a bonus to the post-release purchases), I would obviously not mind.. More specifically, I think it would be the best remedy since the Insane pack has already been announced (as long as that does not affect the price/quality of the overall DLC content). I.e. my beef would be with charging extra for content which was fully developed by the game's release.

(...) I am happy to forego my general preference for avoiding pre-orders in this instance because I feel supportive of this company & game, but missed out on the kickstarter.

Seems like we agree!

[Michael_Kpow]

This game is epic. I honestly believe the beauty, depth, heart and challenge this game possesses will make you forget this thread once the game is released. I'm extremely proud to have been a part of it, and hope you all enjoy it as much as I did working on it.

[Aleonymous]

The character that has caused so much talk in this thread...



I wonder what do the "runes" tattooed on his fingers/palms mean. There's also some "inscriptions" on the shaft of his spear. It would be really cool, lore-wise, if Stoic has also devised some sort of mystical alphabet for their world. I imagine far fetched scenarios in future games where you gotta solve riddles/puzzles and stuff that require knowledge of this glyphs etc. Stuff like that add so much depth in fantasy worlds. Prominent example is Tolkien, who created/devised both languages (e.g Quenya) and scripts (e.g Cirth or Tengwar)

[Saibashi]

I think Tryggvi should be the official mascot for Banner Saga

[Wintersong]

I think it's more bad practice that has tainted the idea of DLCs, when a developer/studio/publisher purposely or intentionally breaks apart something we can consider a whole product, just to sell it piece-meal to make more money.

There is a flipside to this though, which is the opposite. A studio/developer/publisher can give you a full game, and similar to an expansion but in smaller scale, DLCs may also act as a viable model for providing really significant additional content that could not or would not make it in the initial game release.

Having read the whole thread, still feel the need to comment on this. Maybe I'm old school in the grognard line so my apologies. But if you are deviating resources (people, time & money) to create extra content, before the release of the game, that won't be accesible to all the buyers on release day... sorry, but that is the first paragraph of the quote. Even if you are developing such character after having done the rest of the game (100% of it!!!), release date is still far away (unfortunately for us!). Burning disks wit the game? Considering the reliance in patches these days (ergo internet), the extra content could go in the patch as well holding hands with the bug fixes or improvements.

Maybe I'm weird but a discount in price would be an enough incentive to preorder (prepurchase). Having some extra tracks, wallpapers and such, would be good too. Extra playable content (which in this thread has been basically defined as unimportant) being offered before relase (or day 1 DLC) means that you are not offering people the full game. People who doesn't preorder doesn't get that content on release day despite you have been working on it before release (or get it paying extra if you later offer it as DLC).

Digital way means things like not being able to offer boxes, cloth maps and other non digital traditional preordering (prepurchasing) bonuses. Despite that and many people trying to sell us that DLC content for preorder(prepurchase) and day 1 are ok, they are not. Things change but not all the changes are always good (now everything is Early Access, buggy releases are expected, needing multiple patches to make some games playable is not unheard of...). In defense of Stoic, at least the DLC character is not important which is far better than the "super duper weapons" DLCs of some games and stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I just wish that everybody could get everything (in game content) on release without "pacts". Once the game is out and some time has passed, everything is fine in the line of expansions/DLCs. I still remember how annoying it was the Colour preorder bonuses for Dawn of War 2.

Sorry for the rant. Not trying to change anyone's mind.

[Leartes]

I type this now, at the bottom of page 1. Having exclusive content INSIDE the game that cannot be aquired otherwise is a serious reason to not buy the game and not advertise it to others. I'm perfectly willing to wait out the preorder phase and pay more! I'm not willing to randomly miss content because I'm waiting on release and not constanly checking for special offers.

EDIT after reading the rest:
I stand by the point that it is not acceptable to make content exclusive that cannot be aquired by any other means but pre-order.

It does not matter if the content has minor impact and that it is cheaper. Money is not the issue, exclusivity is. 1-day dlc is bad mannered, 1-day dlc that can't be bought past that point is a really really bad business practice.

I mean yeah, it works. I will preorder. Because I randomly stumbled over this when I missclicked a bookmark. If this had not happend I would have checked back on it on 15 january and I'd missed the whole thing. This thought makes me super angry!

[Aleonymous]

I stand by the point that it is not acceptable to make content exclusive that cannot be acquired by any other means but pre-order.

Time is the only thing that can't be reversed, eh? I agree there, but I am not so steadfast on the matter. I mean, I liked this game so much that this community became part of my life. So, it would have been hard for me to miss the pre-order. But, I repeat, I agree that exclusive in-game content is not good.

I mean yeah, it works. I will preorder. Because I randomly stumbled over this when I missclicked a bookmark. If this had not happend I would have checked back on it on 15 january and I'd missed the whole thing. This thought makes me super angry!

I know how this would feel. I missed kickstarter on TBS and was super hyper ultra disappointed afterwards. How's that for time-restrained exclusivity?

[franknarf]

Just saying, this discussion hasn't exactly been encouraging/supportive of what Stoic did right, just how the game industry is wrong...

Well, have a word of mild support from me: good on ya. Also, congrats on becoming part of the dev team, Raven!

I find Firaxis' day-one DLC policy quite infuriating. I am a sucker for pre-ordering their games and dislike the fact that they already have five $5 add-on packs available at launch. They're just trying to milk their loyal customers for as much as possible. Most such games are so huge that I won't play them long enough to miss their DLC and am (grudgingly) willing to wait until the "complete" game comes out (instead of buying piecemeal) before checking them out. Milking fans is not what Stoic is doing here, but a company that is open to DLC at release will probably have five or six DLC packs before a "complete" edition is released, which is a serious turn-off. Bad business practice as far as Stoic's reputation is concerned? Probably. As jorgensager said, if I hadn't been following this game, this would look very bad to me and would lead me to wait for a heavy discount/bundle or a very positive reception on RPS. And, on recommending the game to anyone else, I'll feel obliged to warn them about possible five-dollar-and-dime-ing down the road with future DLCs.

In principle, DLC can also have a second use: convincing people to buy a game without first having the chance to read reviews (which are only up after release). Although that may not be what motivated Stoic here, I guess that could be a side-effect. This hasn't bit me very often, personally.

On the other hand, I don't know what else they should do with extra single-player material they put together that fits most naturally in the first chapter, but wasn't actually part of the roadmap for the released game...As loveboof said, they're sort of damned if they do, damned if they don't. Anyway: I give it mild support because I want to get stuff related to this particular game asap, and I want Stoic to do well financially (by actually getting paid for work) so that we see the full Saga and more!

[Leartes]

I know how this would feel. I missed kickstarter on TBS and was super hyper ultra disappointed afterwards. How's that for time-restrained exclusivity?

Exactly, I also missed kickstarter and I made sure to buy all skins and eternal boost and stuff in factions mostly to contribute in some way. I was happy when I learned there are is no ingame content I missed with the kickstarter (though I was disappointed to learn I can't contribute a crest anymore).

Time constraint is really really bad. You could ridiculously overprize and it would be equally bad, but time is among the worst things you can do. Also it makes no sense at all. You get a few more pre-orders (which earn you less in this case) and then you get an eternity of angry/disappointed people afterwards. Seems like a strong move to get fans for the company - not.

[hreinnbeno]

Exactly, I also missed kickstarter and I made sure to buy all skins and eternal boost and stuff in factions mostly to contribute in some way. I was happy when I learned there are is no ingame content I missed with the kickstarter (though I was disappointed to learn I can't contribute a crest anymore).

Time constraint is really really bad. You could ridiculously overprize and it would be equally bad, but time is among the worst things you can do. Also it makes no sense at all. You get a few more pre-orders (which earn you less in this case) and then you get an eternity of angry/disappointed people afterwards. Seems like a strong move to get fans for the company - not.

But time constraint does exist in life on all levels and is something necessary for life to continue. If you stop time constraints there will only be chaos.

Truth is though, you have to pay your bill monthly (that is a time constraint in a way), you get your salary monthly (that is a time constraint), game is only published once (that is a time constraint).

Those that play the game straight after lunch will play a different version than those 5 months later with and without in game exclusives. Mainly because the game is a lot more likely to be bugged when it is published. That will happen. A lot of people wait to buy games until some idiots have played it for them and got rid of the bugs/ bad game designs. Is that fair. I really dont think that is fair but that is life. What if the idiots get an incentive to be ready to be idiots, to bet on the game when it is published. It is not enough to be lower price as that will happen in the end either way (after a year the price will probably have lowered like it is for all games) or the soundtrack (You can get that rather cheap either way).

The truth is if you go to a game at a later time point you are more likely to have less bugged game (as well better designed) and get it cheaper. Is that fair? No that is not fair. But that is the effect of opposite time constraint. But life isnt always fair. In game exclusives are not fair, but there are other billion things that are not fair either. That is life.

[Aleonymous]

...I also missed kickstarter...

What would you do if something like this "appeal" came to be? Some studios (like inXile @ Numenera) "asked" for the money as a mere donation, and gave almost the same rewards as the original KS backers, at similar $-tiers. Yet, other studios (e.g. Heart Machine @ HLD) gave similar rewards through Humble-Bundle like deals... Not Stoic.

As you can see on that thread I posted, Stoic Studio didn't go that way, even though it doesn't seem so "difficult" to do, especially after they brought a publisher (Versus Evil) to their host. Why? Well, in my opinion, because they are guys with ethics that stick to their word and keep faith to the crowd-sourcing scheme that helped improve their game so much. If all those accusations of them "milking the Factions cow" were true, they would have opened such deals in no time, now, wouldn't they?

I am really curious to see how they are gonna handle the game's success (?) with respect to funding the development of the second part of the trilogy....

[Leartes]

But time constraint does exist in life on all levels and is something necessary for life to continue. If you stop time constraints there will only be chaos.

[...]

but there are other billion things that are not fair either. That is life.

Gaming is something people do in their free time for fun. This is an area of life where you can decide if you want to go with the unfairness or if you want to take your money somewhere else. There is no reason to force unfairness and unfun onto players just because in other parts of life there is unavoidable unfairness.

I sincerely hope devs would not use your argument for their decisions on exclusive content. It would shed a very bad light no them.

Take the recent AMA on reddit for example. Question 3 from top atm "Without giving any spoilers - who is everyone's favorite characters and why? " First answer: "John: Tryggvi - because he is nuts and has an awesome necklace worthy of a parade." Every release day review can quote this with the addition "you will never be able to get to know this guy :P".

What would you do if something like this "appeal" came to be? Some studios (like inXile @ Numenera) "asked" for the money as a mere donation, and gave almost the same rewards as the original KS backers, at similar $-tiers. Yet, other studios (e.g. Heart Machine @ HLD) gave similar rewards through Humble-Bundle like deals... Not Stoic.

Since I visit kickstarter infrequently and often find projects only long after they have been funded I regularly take part in this type of post-kickstarter crowd-funding. Being a kickstarter backer is nothing special it only shows your support. Support shown in a different way should not be treated differently.

Also the whole "milking factions" part is just a stupid missunderstanding. I can't remember a good strategy game with a innovative combat system that didn't do large playtests. Factions is such a test with a very inefficient monetization scheme that allows players to donate a bit money if they feel like it.

[hreinnbeno]

Gaming is something people do in their free time for fun. This is an area of life where you can decide if you want to go with the unfairness or if you want to take your money somewhere else. There is no reason to force unfairness and unfun onto players just because in other parts of life there is unavoidable unfairness.

I sincerely hope devs would not use your argument for their decisions on exclusive content. It would shed a very bad light no them.

Take the recent AMA on reddit for example. Question 3 from top atm "Without giving any spoilers - who is everyone's favorite characters and why? " First answer: "John: Tryggvi - because he is nuts and has an awesome necklace worthy of a parade." Every release day review can quote this with the addition "you will never be able to get to know this guy :P".

My argument wasnt really to have a reason why they did it, it was more of a philosophy discussion on time constraints and why this endless discussion on preorder exclusiveness is a bit empty.

You say my example for the first players is unavoidable unfairness. That isnt really correct. It is true that there will always be some players that will need to serve that role. But really many people wait out the first month of the gameplay to avoid that unfairness thus it is clearly avoidable. And they often do get the game on lowered price as well. So those individuals that buy the game after release will probably play a better game than those that preorder it (and play it immediately) and will know if the game is a sound investment or not. Preordering and playing games immediately is clearly avoidable. So in that sense that is unfair and avoidable. But in the other sense some individuals must play the game in an inferior state. That is just how the current game environment works.

+ I am against these in game exclusives for a completely different reason. Because I knew that this practice is frowned upon and in most discussion about games that have done similar things (both preorder and kickstarter exclusives) negativity surrounds these practices. And that is something that should have been avoided.

[Yellow]

"coming soon to GoG", that was a month ago...., why is then GoG.com still not avanible with less than 2 days left? Will it not be possible to pre-order the game from there? If that is the case, those who buy GoG.com version will then not get the pre-order exclusive "bonus" ?