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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: First impressions/Early Feedback

  1. #41
    I have a few other things:

    I oftentimes found myself missing when clicking to use willpower in order to enhance my attacks. Maybe it was me being an idiot, but maybe those yellow star icons could have a bigger clickable area (not bigger icons themselves).

    And a couple general things that I would like to be taken into account for Chapters2&3:

    * I think the game could have benefited from a couple more dialogue scenes with the main characters, and as I said in a previous post with some follow-ups to big events. Especially dialogue scenes where they act, react and comment upon your choices or the caravan's status. Having NPCs acknowledge you in this way goes a long way in making the player feel their choices matter, that NPCs are real people and be invested in the story and it felt to me that we didn't get to know NPCs in a meaningful way.

    * The change of perspective from one character to another felt largely awkward and not organic at all. The worst one was when we first leave Rook, I was just really getting into his story only to be awkwardly yanked away to a different place and put in control of a new character (Hakon) that I had barely registered while playing yet another character (Ubin). To top it off, when we return to Rook we are in the middle of a fight against Ekkil that to the player doesn't make any sense at all. Later, Hakon's side of the story gets dropped heavily, the Prince also gets dropped alongside, they just turn up and join Rook as if they are simply a couple random NPCs. We need more acknowledgement via NPCs and the transition between playable characters could have used more work it seems to me so that we've reached a satisfying mini-climax or objective before leaving them.
    Last edited by Tychoxi; 01-20-2014 at 10:36 PM.

  2. #42
    Senior Member roder's Avatar
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    1. Make population matter in the game. If your caravan goes to 0 population, your game should end. Population really had no weight or effect on my story or ending, i spent 200+ days leading all these people along the land, and at the end there was no mention of them, and no gratitude either :P I kept my people fed for most of the time, foregoing some promotions/items. and got nothing for my larger population. If you have 0 population, you can just do oversee or retreat and have an easier battle, because you don't care about having heavier losses if your population is already at 0. So war doesn't matter if population doesn't matter.

    2. Armor/Str banner on top of each unit should be the default

    3. Heroes tent should just be shown before and after battle (switch items, see stats)

    4. More Character development, via dialogue or event prompts. The only character personalities I really got to know were Rook, Alette, and Hakon. the rest were not as fleshed out as I would've liked, only talked to Egil once I think (as Rook, but would've been interesting to hear a convo between Egil and Alette), Odd was interesting but the vague Rook-Odd romance was a bit of a bore. Ludin was an interesting antagonist but he became an afterthought after the real antagonists came into play. I could care less about Ubin because i never got to play with him in battle and he always posed with his quill, never really knew what type of person he was even if we were in Ubin's perspective for awhile. I would've rather learned more about the really funny/intriguing characters, like Yrsa, Juno, and Gunnulf.
    Last edited by roder; 01-17-2014 at 11:37 PM.

  3. #43
    Since someone already opened a feedback thread i will post it here.

    Its the 3rd time a run the game, and even when i really enjoyed it, there is a few things that in my opinion should be fixed.

    - Caravan size does not matter at all, starvation should lead into Leadership problems and events.
    - We should be able to change items before fights, and when someone leaves we should get the item back (maybe not, but it just save time, because otherwise game rigt now is like, fight, remove items, wait for next encounter, reequip, repeat).
    - Even when i pick every single chance to fight during the game and pick the right answers to get renown on the events, i have been starving the whole game for points, i understand the game should be difficult, but should be more about hard choices than having now points.

    My last game, as i said, i pick every single fight i almost finish them all with 0-1 casualty and in war fights i fight as many as i could, same with bridge and wall fights. I decided not to buy provisions at all, i let my caravan starve and die while farming as much as i could, i think i bought 1 item (15 renown), while finding 5 level 5 items through choices. And even with that i manage to level (taking out of calculation the mender and the Drunk varl, which were both level 5 while joining you) my guys like this:

    6 level 5, Gunnulf, Rook, Alette, Oddleif, Morg, Tryggvi
    3 Level 4, Griss, Hakon, Iver
    4 Level 3, Bersi, Yrsa, Eirik, Ekkill
    1 Level 2, Nid, Egil
    5 Level 1, Krumr, Ludin, Hogun, Mogun, Olef

    The thing is that i had plenty of kills with the low levels, even to make them reach level 4-5 but.. not enought renown even when i spent 0 buying supplies and 15 in items. Problem with that is that you get stuck to certain combat configuration, which is decided while u leveling them, and you end up not using some of them because of low level.

    Also agree with Roder, characters need more development and need to get more weight on story.

    My next run will be on Hard, just to check if i get more renown playing it.

  4. #44
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roder View Post
    1. Make population matter in the game.
    ...
    4. More Character development, via dialogue or event prompts.
    Those two are high on my list, too. But, they constitute big changes to the game (as it was shipped), that's why I didn't go into them. I do hope they address them; it will be so much better
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  5. #45
    Only one thing to add to these so far:
    Please add button to fast-forward Caravan animation to next event.
    It's pretty and atmospheric and music is nice, etc. but after a while it becomes PAIN to wait for half a minute between events doing nothing - just staring at a wallpaper, I can't imagine how horrible it will be on second playthrough.

  6. #46
    Superbacker Surtr's Avatar
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    I guess I'm now approaching the end of the game. It's been an enjoyable experience!

    It seems that the War decisions almost always lead into poor outcomes, except Charge. Even if my troops have good morale and outnumber the enemy (a rare thing!), they usually lose the battle and suffer incredibly heavy losses if I don't pick the Charge option and fight the dredge personally with my heroes. Also some of the battles seem to be designed to be impossible against hordes of very powerful enemies that outnumber my heroes. I'm on normal difficulty, and I think it's more than enough challenging like that.

    For the next chapters in the series, I'd love to see the War decisions being developed further to open some new tactical opportunities that don't always automatically cause a defeat.

    Another thing that I hope is that I'm not making the future games unplayable because of my poor decisions in this one. As realistic as that might be, it wouldn't be much fun.

  7. #47
    Ok, finished the game and I still love it but there are also some points I didn't like at all:

    • It seems irrelevant how many people you keep alive. Let them starve, let the morale bottom out, it doesn't really seem to matter as long as you handle the wars by charging personally.
    • There are almost too many side characters. Many of them aren't really fleshed out.
    • Even the main characters could use some more love. A bit more banter and, especially prior to the last fight, a few more options to talk to followers.
    • A lot of storylines regarding followers never get persued after the initial setup: e.g.: Egil's crush, the twist between the twins. Why put these things in when there is no follow-up? It just feels unfinished.
    • Equally, the death or loss of heros is almost a bit too common. Losing a hero can make for the most memorable moments in a RPG but only if you give the player time to bond with them and stage the death in a way that doesn't seem hurried (one truely well done example is the Vermire scene in Mass Effect 1, even more so since you get to make the hard choice who is thrown to the wolves). The fate of one main character in this game at the very end is such a meaningful death. Most other just seem hurried: Ooops, and that guy just fell down into the abyss trying to save a chest of money (why should I care, I hardly knew the guy!) Losing one of the twins is another such example. I had 1(?) conversation with these guys during the entire game and thus never really bonded. My main annoyance was that I had levelled the wrong twin and had just lost a rank 5 trasher.
    • Chapter VI: it is almost impossible to feed more than a handful of followers. If one strived to keep a lot of people alive in earlier chapters, now they will be subjected to constant starvation.


    One suggestion: You need to make the caravan, food and morale matter!
    There should be some mechanism that makes you lose the game if your caravan has nothing to eat for more than 3-4 days. Another nice system would be to gain some reknown if you reach certain checkpoints with a certain number of clansmen/fighters/yarl!
    Last edited by Colleteral_Skystrike; 01-18-2014 at 07:50 AM.

  8. #48
    Junior Member Saibashi's Avatar
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    I'm pretty happy with the game so far. Love the music, art style, character design, setting, writing, etc. If I could make one improvement, it would be more variation of the battlefields. I would like to see obstacles or cover to help make things more interesting. There could also be natural hazards or traps. I could see how that might get out of hand though. A few occasional maps consisting of more than a plain grid and enemies would be a nice change of pace imo.

    Some fights could also add conditions to them, as in other strategy RPGs. Maybe you can't let a specific character get killed, or you have a time limit, or some other goal. I wouldn't recommend it for every battle, but plot based objectives could be another neat wrinkle to add.

    The one thing I might disagree with the other posters is concerning character development. I wasn't all that bothered by it. I was pretty happy to follow the characters that the story focuses on. It might just be my personal preference though. I was mostly interested in the game play, and the overall journey. Didn't need to know every character's life story, but I can understand wanting to expand on the characters.

    One thing that might work is to have another option in camp, to talk to individual characters. So players that want to know more about them can, and those that want to focus on the larger picture could skip it. I always kind of figured Banner Saga for focusing on the adventure as a whole, so I didn't fault the lack of character development too much. There's always the next couple of chapters for that I guess.

  9. #49
    Senior Member roder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleonymous View Post
    Those two are high on my list, too. But, they constitute big changes to the game (as it was shipped), that's why I didn't go into them. I do hope they address them; it will be so much better
    True, might be difficult to address fully.

    But here are some ways to make population matter:

    -If caravan goes to 0 population, then game ends
    -If supplies stay at 0 for too long, you go into starvation mode and lose more population/drop automatically to poor morale
    -If morale is poor for too long, you get deserters (population loss)

    basically, the feedback loops are more pronounced, and it all leads to 0 population = end of game.

    -also there are some events that shouldn't happen when you have 0 supplies or 0 population. things like "The thieves have stolen your supplies" was something people complained about, since they had 0 supplies.

  10. #50
    Junior Member Fusei's Avatar
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    I'm really trying to love the game but I can't make it with the turn order. Call me a retarded-conservative-diehard-tbs-fan but I would burn babies for an initiative stat or sequence call it whatever you want but not this dumb 1/1 turn order.

    A 1/1 turn order should only happen when the ennemy and your force got the same number of units. I mean two ennemy units outnumbered 5 to 1 will get an absurd amount of turns. If we would translate a round like this in real time we would see ennemy units attacking/moving two to three time faster than yours. It would look silly wouldn't it ?

    Pillage happen way too late IMO, it should happen as soons as you have a sufficient advantage in terms of units number. It would reflect the fact that you're able to overwhelm the ennemy force.

    It may sounds like a rant or somethin (and maybe it is). But understand that I really wanted to love this game and that I'm hugely dissapointed not being able to. And why ? Just because of some basic element of the TBS genre that is (imo) baddly designed.

    I do not however regret my purchase, The Banner Sage has a *soul*. It has brilliant art and atmosphere, a lot of AAA titles should look over here.

  11. #51
    Junior Member Arizael's Avatar
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    Hello folks. This game is a blast for me and i had a realy good time enjoying it. Please read few things that I belive could use some improving.

    Note: I've played only single player. Hard difficulty.

    1) Turn order system:
    I've understand that you have tried to do something new, differing your game from other turn-based games. However no matter how much I tried to get used to it, it still feeled weird and unnatural. It became quickly clear that the system encourages me to:

    a) Leave your enemies at 1STR and focus on fresh ones. Yes I know that Pillage and Horn should adress that, but it's not even nearly enough. It feels silly and prolongs the combat.
    b) Sacrifice my weakened heroes. It soaks enemy hits and prevent them from "slowing me down". Injuries are meaningless - they autoheal for no coast in few days and most of the time u don't even notice them. Should the need arise you can employ injured characters anyway - with just minor strenght malus.

    Suggestion: Please switch to classic turn order known from other games. I know this probably won't happen, but i will be much pleased if it will :-). Also make injuries more crippling, perhaps by taking longer and preventing you from using that character in battle until healed.

    2) Economy
    Renown being the only currency makes no sense. Apart from weird feeling of "buying" stuff for my heroic deeds there are many gameplay flaws:
    a) Main source of renown are battles. So the player is encouraged to fight on every possible occasion as many enemies as possible. More fighting => more renown => stronger characters => easier to win battles => more fighting. This loop thus leads to kill many choices, leaving battle as the most viable option 90% of the time.
    b) You don't care for anything else than renown. Remember the event when Gunnulf tries to stop the cart from falling? Well I Immidiately though myself - I don't need any frigging treasure, all i need is Renown. Let it fall.

    Suggestion: Reward renown differently. Make it all be rewarded by events for players succeses, not by the sheer number of enemies you kill. Introduce classic monentary currency that could spent on supplies, artifacts and stuff like medicine, bribes etc.

    3) Warfare
    The system is badly explained and has one clear best choice.
    a) Right now the best option is to Charge, since if you win the heroes combat, you win the entire battle (also u get most Renown).
    b) It doesn't matter of your composition of Varl/Fighters/Clansmen. It doesn't matter on the numbers either. The enemy will always have comparable army to yours. This means the less people with you the better, best is to have 0 as you save renown for other things than supplies.

    Suggestion: Make warfare less predictable and with longer event chain. And pretty please stop adjusting number of enemies on player's army size. Army not big enough? You better run.

    Thanks all for reading and hope that some of my feedback will be used.

  12. #52
    Superbacker Surtr's Avatar
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    I finally managed to beat the game! I'm not ashamed to admit that I lowered the difficulty level to easy in the final chapter. This wasn't an easy game to begin with, but the final battles became simply frustrating affairs against super powerful enemy units that could bring my best fighters down with a couple of hits. Even on easy, the final boss took a couple of attempts to defeat. Phew! I guess the difficulty level was designed for Factions veterans. I wasn't interested in it and didn't play, so the single player game's battles were real struggles to survive from beginning to the end.

    Chapter 6 was very confusing, because I was never able to keep my caravan supplied no matter what I tried. By the time I reached the final city, people were dropping dead by the dozens. I'm not sure what I could have done differently to prevent it from happening. Never rest? Anyway, the events regarding stolen supplies seemed odd, because there were no supplies to steal!

    Even though there were some negative things, I have to say I'm really impressed by this game. I honestly think it's the most beautiful game I've ever played. The art is simply amazing, and the music blends into everything perfectly. The story was interesting and I'd have loved to read even more dialogue and lore.

    Extremely impressive work for such a small team. I can't wait for the sequel!

  13. #53
    The more I play the more I like the game. It's certainly the most beautiful game I've played since Homeworld. However I find the dialogue system slightly frustrating. The camera seems to cut fairly randomly between characters during conversations and is often at odds with who is actually speaking. I also think it would be really nice to be able to scroll back through the current conversation.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    I finally managed to beat the game! I'm not ashamed to admit that I lowered the difficulty level to easy in the final chapter. This wasn't an easy game to begin with, but the final battles became simply frustrating affairs against super powerful enemy units that could bring my best fighters down with a couple of hits. Even on easy, the final boss took a couple of attempts to defeat. Phew! I guess the difficulty level was designed for Factions veterans. I wasn't interested in it and didn't play, so the single player game's battles were real struggles to survive from beginning to the end.

    Chapter 6 was very confusing, because I was never able to keep my caravan supplied no matter what I tried. By the time I reached the final city, people were dropping dead by the dozens. I'm not sure what I could have done differently to prevent it from happening. Never rest? Anyway, the events regarding stolen supplies seemed odd, because there were no supplies to steal!

    Even though there were some negative things, I have to say I'm really impressed by this game. I honestly think it's the most beautiful game I've ever played. The art is simply amazing, and the music blends into everything perfectly. The story was interesting and I'd have loved to read even more dialogue and lore.

    Extremely impressive work for such a small team. I can't wait for the sequel!
    I think maybe thats the point. There is no way to keep your caravan supplied, its a forced march to get somewhere safe to escape the pursuit of Bellower and the dredge.

    I also can't wait for the sequels, the game almost feels incomplete because its so short.

  15. #55
    Backer Jawbone78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roder View Post
    -also there are some events that shouldn't happen when you have 0 supplies or 0 population. things like "The thieves have stolen your supplies" was something people complained about, since they had 0 supplies.
    This is actually the most upsetting things about that whole caravan/supply mechanic - the impression I got was that it somehow never crossed the devs' minds that not only was it possible to reach that stage with no supplies and no way to acquire them, but that it was extremely likely that players would get there in that state.

    I'm a software developer. One of my biggest problems at work is being unable to understand what the users of my software will actually do with it. I have an idea in mind, and I design, implement, and test a solution based on that. I try to think of all the ways an idiot might get into a bad state, but it's hard when you know all the systems so well. So then I hand it off to QA, and if I'm lucky they'll find the obvious holes in my work. Too often, because they also know the systems quite well, we let something out into the wild that is not only breakable, but easily breakable by someone doing completely the wrong thing.

    The encounters resulting in lost supplies when there are no supplies make me wonder if the developers and testers really thought that it was going to be a rare condition that the caravan is out of supplies - that the way to stay supplied was somehow obvious. Frankly, I did literally everything I could to try to keep my people fed (at the expense of my squad, in many ways), but between the general lack of opportunity to gain supplies and the sheer number of events that just randomly toss days worth of supplies over cliffs, I spent more than half the journey with nothing at all.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Fusei View Post
    this dumb 1/1 turn order.

    A 1/1 turn order should only happen when the ennemy and your force got the same number of units. I mean two ennemy units outnumbered 5 to 1 will get an absurd amount of turns. If we would translate a round like this in real time we would see ennemy units attacking/moving two to three time faster than yours. It would look silly wouldn't it?
    Aye, imagine how much more fun chess would have been, if turns were depending on amount of remaining units.

  17. #57
    Junior Member Sol's Avatar
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    A few ideas, after finishing the game last night. I wish I could say I loved it, but I can say I was intrigued by it and the potential for the franchise and the genre.

    Battle:

    Have unspent willpower provide some elements of randomness like giving critical hit chances, etc. I found it was more often than not beneficial to just burn through all my willpower as early as possible boosting my attacks. Perhaps it could give units a chance to stay alive when brought below 0hp, or some other passive reason to truly treasure it.

    Ability to move units after their actions, which would be especially useful for squishy ranged units attempting to maintain range. Perhaps it could be limited to only certain "mobile" classes. Could also be very useful combined with certain utility powers like knockbacks.

    Some sort of reward for actually killing enemies instead of wearing them all down. For example: if you kill an enemy unit which is queued for the next action, that action is lost and not simply replaced with another enemy's action.

    Give characters credit for more than just killing blows. I ended up allowing quite a few "deaths" in the middle to late parts of the game due to delaying for the character I needed to get the kill.

    More abilities for each unit. Perhaps the one built-in class ability and then the option to learn others as you promote them. I found myself basically following the exact same overall strategy every battle, and giving my party more options could go a long way to combating that sense of repetition.

    Someone else mentioned more dynamic battlefields. I agree 100%. I can recall one fight where there was a hole in the floor that I had to chase a ranged enemy around from both sides to pin him in. Other than that it is just starting position.

    Non-combat game-play:

    Option to hunt or otherwise gather resources when camped. Some 'mini-games' could go a long way towards spicing up the longer treks, especially later in the game when Rook's group is (seemingly by design) constantly low on supplies.

    Option to steal or otherwise gain supplies/items from markets. You might get away with it, it might draw a fight, you might lose access to that market or be forced to immediately leave the town.

    Ways to get more renown other than always picking the violent option. There are few choices that seem to consistently offer renown the way that fighting does, and a few bad uses of it (like spending it all on supplies that are immediately lost) can cripple the ability to promote and equip your party.

    As mentioned by several people already, some sort of reward for keeping your people alive.

    Presentation:

    More story. More in-depth story. More character development. A lot of it can be optional, but so far my impression is that I just read the first act of a novel rather than the first novel in a series.

  18.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #58
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    I like that steal option.

    I also agree with more renown options besides fights/violence.

    Good feedback.

  19. #59
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Have unspent willpower provide some elements of randomness like giving critical hit chances, etc [...] Perhaps it could give units a chance to stay alive when brought below 0hp, or some other passive reason to truly treasure it.
    I can see where you're coming from, but I think WP serves it's purpose correctly as it is. For me, finishing a fight with high WP means it was an easy (or short) fight. Running out of WP means I'm having a hard time... One of the Mender's active abilities takes into account the amount of WP you got left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Some sort of reward for actually killing enemies instead of wearing them all down.
    Horn willpower is that reward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Someone else mentioned more dynamic battlefields. I agree 100%.
    Me too. I wonder why they didn't use more of those..

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Option to hunt or otherwise gather resources when camped.
    Option to steal or otherwise gain supplies/items from markets.
    Interesting. I like those ideas. However, the second one kinda deviates from the generally "neutral good" alignment that Rook emits.
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  20. #60
    Senior Member Butters's Avatar
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    Talking

    Some very interesting and spot-on feedback in this thread already !
    Just skimmed through it but will make sure to read up on the community reviews a bit more.

    I completely agree that making population matter and tweaking resource management are on top of the list.
    I often really miss a functional barracks/heroes' tent before battles. Please, please, give us access to item equipment at least. I'd really like promoting too (just the full barracks functionality, actually). I'd like to see it available by default and maybe disabled when you are being ambushed or otherwise unprepared for battle (which keeps the incentive to keep at the ready when setting camp).
    The biggest annoyance for me at this point (second playthrough in hard almost finished) is with the battle UI. Not having the turn order of enemy units is infuriating ! Please give us the Factions-style full initiative bar during deployment. Meaningful placement depends so much on it. I end up always going the safe route and deploying at safe, suboptimal positions which makes for awkward beginning of battles. Coming from Factions where battles are mostly fought and won in the first two team rotations, this is a bit anti-climatic...
    On second playthrough, I see a lot of quality of life improvements that could be made. While not as critical as the points above, I do believe some form of "new game+" type of features would really benefit the game and its replayability. Making travel sequences skippable would be one. Another could be to add "hints" on meaningful conversation choices that you have already made in a previous playthrough, reminding you of the outcome (ex: next to the choice for "take character X into battle", add a tooltip or subtext that says "character Y will be in danger" or something). Seeing as some consequences seem a bit arbitrary (or at least unforeseen) that would help tremendously with navigating the story "tree", so we can try and enjoy the paths we haven't taken yet. As it is I will probably need to do the next playthroughs while looking at the wiki to make sure I get to the parts of the game I haven't seen yet, which is a bit of a turnoff.
    I also agree with previous feedback that transitions (between caravans, between events, etc) could really benefit from a bit of smoothing and easing into. As it is some are still quite disorienting even the second time around.
    Also, I think the very beginning of the game (The gods are dead." text introduction) needs a bit of polish. With no sound and a not particularly pretty font or scrolling, it's a poor first impression compared to the graphics and sound awesomeness that ensues ! Just move the Stoic logo (which is gorgeous) before that, and start the music directly afterwards while the text is displayed. That would be a vast improvement imho.

    I'm a bit torn between wanting to see Saga 1.1 ASAP to ensure an even better critical and commercial success for the game (I really, really want to see a lot of funding to go into the next chapters, which already blow my mind before even being created), and on the other hand also wanting to see Factions 2.0 ASAP with a bunch more units and maps and much much more. As it is it's a bit sad that the players enjoying Saga now will be coming to Factions in its current state and possibly give up on it before it gets as good as it will be.
    If only we could just clone the Stoic guys and have them work on both at the same time... I'd back that Kickstarter ! :3

    Anyway beyond the early feedback I'd like to reiterate that I'm loving the game, it's gorgeous and it's fun and it's hard and it's gorgeous some more.
    Bravo Stoic ! You delivered on those high expectations... And then some !
    Love you guys, thank you.
    Last edited by Butters; 01-20-2014 at 12:11 PM.

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