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Thread: Endgame breaking party restrictions

  1. #1

    Unhappy Endgame breaking party restrictions

    Good Day,

    I just reached the ( what i think ) is the final battle of the game, the fight against Bellower.

    Just before starting the fight, i can choose my final Party from all the best units i got to love, or so i thought.

    But it seems this last mission was not intended for for my preferred party.

    For most of the game i was annoyed i always had to have Rook forced into my battles, because he had no role i wanted him to have.

    When he finally reached rank 5 ( which involved a lot of feeding him 1-health enemies ), i had him on armor-breaking duty until he would be unconscious, which was a workable solution for his forced appearance.

    This party restriction thing was tolerable until now, but now it breaks my game.

    I want to go into the final battle with Gunnulf, Mogr, Oddleif, Nid, Krumr, Eyvind and sure i could take Rook this final time too. These are all rank 5.

    But no matter who carries the Silver Arrow, Alette is forced into the final party.

    I hardly ever used Alette and had send her to the bench as soon as possible, she is rank 1 with 1 kill.

    Now i have to go into battle with her because i cannot remove her from the party after she gets force-added just before the battle.

    This makes zero sense to me because when i pick Rook to carry the Arrow, what point is it to have her in the party ?

    Oddleif and Nid are far better suited to carry the Arrow, given they are my preferred longrange units, and are extremely good at dealing tons of armor damage in 1 turn which is the essence to the final battle.

    To make things even worse, in my current party Iver has -3 health from his last battle, and the game refuses me to replace him for somebody else.

    Basically this means i have to face Bellower with a character I would exchange if i could ( Rook ), a very injured unit ( Iver ) and a useless rank 1 archer ( Alette ), while for my playstyle much better units are idling on the bench.

    Naturally i am curbed to dust in the final mission, and after 10 or so tries i have given up on it.

    I never lost a single battle the whole game, sure there have been tough moments but i always managed to pull through ( which is nice in retrospect given the abysimal savepoint system ).

    Does this mean because the game forces some units into the final fight i cannot finish the battle or am i missing something ?

    Or is the intention that if i don't use Alette from day 1 i am supposed to loose the game ?

    I really wish there would be no party restrictions at all ( other than story fights like Iver vs Bellower on the bridge) , the story is carried by choice options and not the battles themselves anyway.

    I mean what point is there to have a selectable party if the Devs want me to use a specific set of units all game long ?

    And why am i punished without warning on last minute for not using Alette ?

  2. #2
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Hello! This has been reported here. It constitutes a problem sure, I agree...
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  3. #3
    Backer Slimsy Platypus's Avatar
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    Hey there! I know exactly what you mean as an injured Iver and rank 1 alette made it feel like I couldn't complete my last play through on hard. One thing you can do to progress, is turn down the difficulty to easy and the battle becomes very easily manageable. Hope that helps!

  4. #4
    Well thanks for pointing out that this seems to be a common problem, but still if the Devs know that Alette has to be in the final battle why didn't they make it so she is forced into the game from the start ?

    They did that with Rook and Iver too, afterall, they are both forced into battle all game long and forced into the final fight.

    Frustrated and unwiling to replay the whole game just for this oversight i watched the ending on Youtube and i think this might be the worst party-mechanic i ever had to deal with in any game.

    It makes no sense to have her when Rook carries the Arrow, storywise Alette could stand near the battlefield and watch rook get killed after he shoots it.

    I was led to believe i have a choice in having Alette along or not the whole game long, now on the very last battle i am being punished for it.

    I think the Devs should either just abandon the whole 'Pick your own party'-feature or lift the party restrictions alltogether.

    Because in the current state this is just an insult to those who did not know they have to drag Alette along all the time.

    Combined with the very annoying and totally restrictive savepoint system the whole game now feels like a huge mispurchase, which is quite sad considering the great story and lovable artwork.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Rensei's Avatar
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    The final battle is not about winning, but about certain actions (break 5 armour on Bello, shoot him with arrow and kill Bello) as far as party goes You need Rook with maxed str and the +3 glove, level 2 Nid and some breakers.

    I agree though that we should be able to finally create an all-star team and send it at Bello, no gimmicks, just a tough mofo that needs to be outwitted.

  6. #6
    Junior Member Mhorhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rensei View Post
    The final battle is not about winning, but about certain actions (break 5 armour on Bello, shoot him with arrow and kill Bello) as far as party goes You need Rook with maxed str and the +3 glove, level 2 Nid and some breakers.

    I agree though that we should be able to finally create an all-star team and send it at Bello, no gimmicks, just a tough mofo that needs to be outwitted.
    That's a really odd and specific way of looking at things It assumes either Rook or Alette are rank 5, have maxed str, and you're willing to use the gloves on them. Furthermore, it assumes your archer will not lose any Str to Bellower's bellows before placing the shot.

    Needless to say, besides this very specific situation, having 3 characters imposed on us for the final battle - especially in a game where for the longest time you can't really be sure of anyone but Rook surviving.. - is.. not the best way to go about things

    I had a rank 2 Alette and a rank 4 Rook.. it was a chore, I'll tell you that much.

  7. #7
    Junior Member Bastilean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mhorhe View Post
    That's a really odd and specific way of looking at things It assumes either Rook or Alette are rank 5, have maxed str, and you're willing to use the gloves on them. Furthermore, it assumes your archer will not lose any Str to Bellower's bellows before placing the shot.

    Needless to say, besides this very specific situation, having 3 characters imposed on us for the final battle - especially in a game where for the longest time you can't really be sure of anyone but Rook surviving.. - is.. not the best way to go about things

    I had a rank 2 Alette and a rank 4 Rook.. it was a chore, I'll tell you that much.
    Bello was easy. There is a +3 Armor break item I equipped on her. I put that on Alette and had 3 armor break on her. If she is level 1 just equip her bracelet.

    Rook is awesome, if only because he can get 2+ party members attacking at the same time. He is a complete rofl-stomper with good armor break as described by the OP.

    Iver is just as strong after he gets his arm ripped off, but you have to make sure you respend his level up points, because he is basically a hybrid class after his mender surgery and needs those points redistributed. How you didn't notice by now is beyond me. His max health/strength is actually 2 points higher than when he carried a shield. His main drawback is his max armor break went down by 1. Also, I don't like sending a cripple into battle: it feels wrong. Give the man a purple heart and send him home.

    Someone mentioned Nid. Nid has better stats at lvl 1 than Alette had at level 4. Wow. Yeah I used her too.

    I really wanted to use Gunnulf, because he is magical when he lays the wood, but he was wounded in the previous fight and I accomplished it without him. Hakon was a big help in the laying the wood.

    Not sure why you would want Eyvind. He is practically useless in the battle against bello. Keep in mind your main aim is to focus fire on Bellower not kill all his minions. After I reduce the strength of the 18 strength slag down to 10 I assume the extra enemies keep Bellower from one shotting my party members each turn.

    I agree that Alette should not be forced into the last fight. I do hope there is a different ending if I have rook carry the arrow. This seems astonishingly rail-roaded otherwise.

  8. #8
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    I don't mind Alette & Rook being in the final battle, but there should be some story event that makes it so.

    Taking up a suicide mission hardly seems like the place where a father would wanna bring his daughter along If Rook gives the arrow to Alette, it's OK that he comes along; it makes sense, but, not the other way around. In the latter case (Rook has the arrow), I'd have put Alette as the 7th team member who somehow "sneaked" along with the 6 commandos. Perhaps she can be AI-controlled (attacking the Dredge of course) if we don't want her messing up our queue.
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Bastilean View Post
    Iver is just as strong after he gets his arm ripped off, but you have to make sure you respend his level up points, because he is basically a hybrid class after his mender surgery and needs those points redistributed. How you didn't notice by now is beyond me.
    You did not understand or did not read all of my post.

    I am very well aware of the ripped-off arm and its effects, but he has minus 3 health ( AKA being wounded for 3 days ) from the battle just before the final one.

    I cannot let him camp for 3 days to heal the damage, there is no camp option.

    This has nothing to do with restributing points or his ripped-off arm, he is simply wounded in a game-mechanic manner.

    The enemies will almost always go for armor on high-armor units which makes sense, but now they are attacking his health right away.

    And i always used Eyvind to repair the armor of the Tank(s), which so far worked extremely well considering i only have items that draw aggro on my tanks and lower aggro for my supporters/archers.

    People seem to say it is doable with a fully ranked Alette and healthy Iver, while those of us who did not rank Alette and have a wouned Iver have problems with it.

    That clearly shows that the final battle was designed for a specific set of units and playstyle, or atleast nobody in Q&A ( if there were any, considering the savepoint system ) did their job right.

    This all reminds me a bit of how in "Deus Ex : Human Revolution" you have all those different choices in playing it stealthy or just shoot everything up, but the bosses were incredibly unbalanced for stealth characters because of the focus on raw firepower against them.
    Last edited by thelastofthefirst; 01-19-2014 at 09:15 AM.

  10. #10
    I think I am in the same boat as the OP, though the game I used Rook and the Insane Spearman as my main armour breakers but after I said that Rook would take the arrow (I hardly used Alette, so why would I bring her to the final battle?) and that means that my main armour breaker, the guy who I used from the start of the game to break amour will get taken out by Belltower and the second phase is hard as I lack any armour damage dealers in the party as the other one who got damaged in an earlier fight. Throw in weak morale I'm not sure how I can win using this line up:
    L8fObC0-2014-01-19-00001_tn.jpg

    I really like the game but I know that if I could ditch Iver and Alette I think I could stand a chance but I cant get rid of them and whilst Demon's/Dark Souls also had a system where a single from of income paid for leveling up and items at least in those you could revisit areas for more Souls unlike here has 3 MAJOR things that Renown has to be invest in and you get so little of it...

  11. #11
    I don't think Iver is mandatory...at least he wasn't for me (maybe it is dependent on previous choices?). I used Rook, Alette, Tryggvi, Mogr, Hakon, and Griss.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Rensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mhorhe View Post
    That's a really odd and specific way of looking at things It assumes either Rook or Alette are rank 5, have maxed str, and you're willing to use the gloves on them. Furthermore, it assumes your archer will not lose any Str to Bellower's bellows before placing the shot.
    Like I said - I do agree the fight could have been planned differently and actually challenging and would like to be able to pick the best out of my two teams and test them out.

    However still I think it's silly to assume the main character would not be required to participate in the final battle - I was expecting Hakon instead of Alette, and was attempting pacifist Alette achievement, so it got me off guard, but it was more of an annoyance and hardly game breaking.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lochlan View Post
    I don't think Iver is mandatory...at least he wasn't for me (maybe it is dependent on previous choices?). I used Rook, Alette, Tryggvi, Mogr, Hakon, and Griss.
    I wish he was, I really do but the game says I need him (full screen so you can see):
    https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/11...0/203/zuwb.jpg
    Its so annoying as somehow I can get the bell tower down to phase two and down to 5 strength but the line just falls apart and Alette gets one shotted by any dredge unit, I am finding how to get some damage from her but Iver is just dead weight and when he is not being stunned locked from the screams he dies to pretty much anything...

  14. #14
    Junior Member Abishai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreapo View Post
    I wish he was, I really do but the game says I need him (full screen so you can see):
    https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/11...0/203/zuwb.jpg
    Its so annoying as somehow I can get the bell tower down to phase two and down to 5 strength but the line just falls apart and Alette gets one shotted by any dredge unit, I am finding how to get some damage from her but Iver is just dead weight and when he is not being stunned locked from the screams he dies to pretty much anything...
    Iver was not in my final fight.

  15. #15
    Junior Member Abishai's Avatar
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    I didn't have Iver in my final fight.

  16. #16
    Junior Member Mhorhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bastilean View Post
    Bello was easy. There is a +3 Armor break item I equipped on her. I put that on Alette and had 3 armor break on her. If she is level 1 just equip her bracelet.

    Rook is awesome, if only because he can get 2+ party members attacking at the same time. He is a complete rofl-stomper with good armor break as described by the OP.

    Iver is just as strong after he gets his arm ripped off, but you have to make sure you respend his level up points, because he is basically a hybrid class after his mender surgery and needs those points redistributed. How you didn't notice by now is beyond me. His max health/strength is actually 2 points higher than when he carried a shield. His main drawback is his max armor break went down by 1. Also, I don't like sending a cripple into battle: it feels wrong. Give the man a purple heart and send him home.

    Someone mentioned Nid. Nid has better stats at lvl 1 than Alette had at level 4. Wow. Yeah I used her too.

    I really wanted to use Gunnulf, because he is magical when he lays the wood, but he was wounded in the previous fight and I accomplished it without him. Hakon was a big help in the laying the wood.

    Not sure why you would want Eyvind. He is practically useless in the battle against bello. Keep in mind your main aim is to focus fire on Bellower not kill all his minions. After I reduce the strength of the 18 strength slag down to 10 I assume the extra enemies keep Bellower from one shotting my party members each turn.

    I agree that Alette should not be forced into the last fight. I do hope there is a different ending if I have rook carry the arrow. This seems astonishingly rail-roaded otherwise.
    Uh.. thanks? I think? I dunno? I wasn't looking for a tutorial on how to win the fight/play the game, nor was I moaning about difficulty. And you seem to have been skimming a bit - both the OP and my post. Yes, I had the +3 break item, except (as I had said) Alette was r2, and it was useless for Bellower purposes to use it on Rook. No, the magical bracelet does not magically turn an R2 Alette into a useful character, no. Yes, Rook is awesome - he's also just as awesome if you don't use up more Renown on him than R3, since his maxed special isn't anymore special than at rank 2, and for the rest he works as an archer mighty fine (I was trying to keep my caravan alive)

    You seem to be laboring under a misapprehension that other builds are not suited to this battle. It should not be like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rensei View Post
    Like I said - I do agree the fight could have been planned differently and actually challenging and would like to be able to pick the best out of my two teams and test them out.

    However still I think it's silly to assume the main character would not be required to participate in the final battle - I was expecting Hakon instead of Alette, and was attempting pacifist Alette achievement, so it got me off guard, but it was more of an annoyance and hardly game breaking.
    Main character, yeah, sure, no issues there. But 3 characters? And it's not about being game breaking - though it is annoying - but rather about the fact it should be a lot more flexible. Dead Gods know, we get little enough flexibility in planning our party anyway.

  17. #17
    I think Alette is supposed to be in the final battle for some reason (probably because it is easier to code that way and say Dad no). While Iver is not. I believe that is a part of bug that causes that after einartoft (at least for my) if Iver and Rook were put in my lineup I couldnt get them out. Only reason that I didnt have Iver in last fight was because the program automatically took him out. But I would have put him in I wouldnt have been able to take him out.

  18. #18
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Guys, guys... Rook, Alette & Iver are the three main characters of the game! That earns them the "right" to be in the last battle. I don't have a problem with that, I just wished that the supporting story-line (dialogues, events) "softly forced" those three in. Why would you wanna bring second-roles, like that prick Ludin, Tryggvi the "exclusive" or generic units like Gunnulf or Griss?
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleonymous View Post
    Guys, guys... Rook, Alette & Iver are the three main characters of the game! That earns them the "right" to be in the last battle. I don't have a problem with that, I just wished that the supporting story-line (dialogues, events) "softly forced" those three in. Why would you wanna bring second-roles, like that prick Ludin, Tryggvi the "exclusive" or generic units like Gunnulf or Griss?
    The truth is though. There is a bug going around that forces you to take Rook and Iver in all matches (because it was not my first run). In my second run after Einartoft, you couldnt take Rook or Iver out of the team. Even in the heroes tent in the camp. + I didnt need to take Iver in both of my runs to the final battle.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Rensei's Avatar
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    Uhhh Iver was not required for the last fight in ANY of my 3 games - different difficulties, times played (my experimetal 800days long run ^_^) and decisions each time. I watched someone stream the final and he also had only Rook and Alette "forced" (people really suck at saga tactics btw - he took a good two hours on Bello, and still didn't look like he was gonna make it when I left).
    Last edited by Rensei; 01-20-2014 at 05:10 AM.

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