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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: The Caravan: Let them starve.

  1. #1

    The Caravan: Let them starve.

    So aside from the morale hit, what's the benefit of keeping my caravan alive past the last war event (chapter 4 maybes?).

    In my playthrough I ran out of food at the bridge and was sad. Then I realised that almost every event that happened after that was about losing supplies (of which I had none, so *shrug*).

    I spent all my renown on upgrades instead and waltzed through chapter 6 and 7 without much a care until the final battle which took a few attempts, but once I worked out what I needed to do I was fine.

    So, what's the point of the caravan after the last war event?

    Does the size of your caravan affect the difficulty of the final battle? The hit to morale didn't bother me at all... so unless there is something else going on that's a whole facet of the game I needn't bother with (and that also makes me sad).

    Thoughts?

    Edit: Oh also, what's the point of clansman. I know I can sometimes convert them into fighters but otherwise all they do is eat supplies... I'm looking solely at game-mechanics here rather than narrative devices.
    Last edited by Finjinimo; 01-18-2014 at 11:17 PM.

  2. #2
    Junior Member Torator's Avatar
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    There is no point to them apart from being proud of yourself.

    As far as i know there is no impact, except that morale drop quicly when you're out of food, and you can't seem to be able to have great morale.
    Othewise to make the game with no low morale at all, i let everyone starve, once everyone is dead get a bit of food and here is the morale.

    I would love if there was an achievement asking you to bring 800 undread of a thousand of clanmen to Boersgard
    ( I don't know if it's possible to get so much until the end )

  3. #3
    Superbacker Surtr's Avatar
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    Good points. I was wondering about the same things.

    In contrast to King of Dragon Pass, it doesn't seem to matter how many of your people survive in the end. In KoDP, the effects of handling things badly and letting your clan weaken were always obvious. The caravan in TBS is kinda in the background and the heroes get all the attention. In Chapter 6 my caravan was really starving and I felt that I had failed miserably, but it didn't seem to matter at all.

    Of course it's possible that these things will matter in the sequel. Maybe we'll learn to regret having wasted so many people in the first game!

  4. #4
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    This is [certainly] going to be fixed in the upcoming patch
    If you don't know where to put it - put it in the pillage

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  5. #5
    Junior Member dufake's Avatar
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    The clansman can help to build the ship, but it doesn't matter due to the riot.
    We should see more options and events from the clansman!! Don't kill them all!

    Maybe there should be more hero units from the clansman in the next game.

  6. #6
    Backer Mierko's Avatar
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    Starved them all to death before I met Krumr and I haven't spent any more than 10 renown on supplies. Makes Hard mode much easier to handle. I was getting destroyed in early game without the Exertion and skills unlocked.

    That said it really should be patched. You shouldn't be able to get away with negating a major factor in how Renown is spent. It sure as hell makes playing on Hard the entire game damn near impossible. One match spawned with enemies completely surrounding me and there was no way to position my heroes without taking a few free pot shots right off the bat. Adding to the issue that without being able to funnel enemies or provide any crowd control I was mobbed. I spent hours trying to survive it before I had to change the difficulty for the fight.

    P.S. Agreed about Clansmen. They are leeches and provide no benefits.

  7. #7
    in boersgard you need some fighters with you,as the days go by you will have to look out for the caravan,reinforce the wallslook for supplies and keep the riotsdown,youll lose people by choosing those options,and you can lose Krumr there,by constrat if you fight fight fight in the walls,you lose clansmem

  8. #8
    Does it really need to have those sort of consequences?
    Its clearly a story driven game that appeals to your emotions, its not necessarily ment to be all about war tactics, if it were would it not have warriors as protagonists instead of civilians etc.
    As someone just said, "I felt that I had failed miserably", that is exactly what the game wants you to feel! And those that don't feel sad about that number going down might be better off playing something else.

    But. KoDP is awesome and it couldn't hurt to try making this more complicated. So, is there something that can be done in those directions without loosing the original idea?

  9. #9
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Yes, we need more incentive to keep those poor souls alive. Morale/Supplies/Population relation doesn't seem to work very well. Here's some suggestions:
    • If a certain % of the population dies (e.g. 10-20%) morale is "stuck" to poor/low for good, i.e. it requires MUCH more rest/supplies to re-increase.
    • Caravan population (fighters & Varl) delimits how many characters you can bring to a fight (human & Varl classes, respectively). For example, for each 10 population units, you can bring one more character, e.g. a 79Fighter & 11Varl population allows you to bring up to 7 human units & up to 1 Varl unit.
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  10. #10
    Superbacker Surtr's Avatar
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    Any idea when the patch is coming out? I'll start a new game only when it's done.

    Changing the mechanics of supply needs some careful testing to see whether it's at all possible to play the game with the currently available supply sources if starvation will greatly weaken your chances in battle.

  11. #11
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Unofficial sources report "Soon(TM)" as in "a couple of weeks". It surely won't be past 14-Feb, I presume... I think Stoic would want to do one "big" patch with all these stuff that's brought up, not a lot of small patches, right?
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Rensei's Avatar
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    Like I wrote earlier - they don't matter at all:
    - all the events that sound like there was anyone in Your party will still pop,
    - events converting x to y will pop and grant You y,
    - battles will NOT be harder - the dredge numbers will be brought down to Your level (the battle description will show You fighting vs an army of, for instance, 1 dredge, then You will fight the standard numbers),
    - did little testing here, but looks like for the sake of grand battles (and determining how hard the battle will be) varl are counted equally to human fighters,
    - starving them in camps/villages will actually boost Your morale, as You gain it by resting in camp while having food. The morale wont' go down as they slowly die out. When done in town, You can resupply right after to have a long lasting stock (heroes themselves still eat quite a lot),
    - they starve at a steady rate, unrelated to the initial numbers,
    - the dredge won't flood the lands even if You take Your sweet time and finish the game round day 800.

    I'm assuming the guys at Stoic simply did not expect some of us to be psychotic, homicidal munchkins and that the patch is on its way.
    For now... don't do it - it's long, boring and spoils the immersion. On my current run I'm trying to save as many as possible, pretending my Rook cares, and it's much more fun, because I'm also staring to care.

  13. #13
    Yeah, that's what I thought.

    The caravan only really matters if you're playing for the narrative -- which I assume with a game like this most people are. However, it would be neat if keeping your caravan alive actually mattered.

    Something like:

    - 'if you starve for 14 days in a row you lose' type scenario.
    - Harsher penalities for starving (like a chance for your heroes to be injured by starvation?)
    - Or perhaps for every day you starve, you lose 1 renown... that would pinch a bit.

    I want to care about my caravan, and mostly I do. But I seem to get to a point where supplies are so hard to come by that it's not worth the effort of keeping anyone fed. And that's a huge flaw I think.

  14. #14
    hmm... most of heroes you take have loved ones, right? (Egil and Oddleif have people of Skogr, the twins have their own villagers, etc.etc.)

    what if as population decreases (and a function of morale), there's a random chance of a hero deserting with their people (or a group of heroes, like the twins or Oddleif and Egil who have common interest), citing they think you're a terrible leader and they can take care of their own better, and if your population and morale are too low the rest of the caravan mutinies on you, rip Alette from your arms, and lynch you both? (either in anger or they proceed to cannibalize your dead bodies, since you left them so bloody hungry, a suitable end I say)

    the hero leaving would be random, therefore the bigger an entourage you keep, the less chance of someone you like (and leveled) leaving you, but the more renown you need to spend on upkeep.

  15. #15
    Junior Member elitesix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finjinimo View Post
    Yeah, that's what I thought.

    The caravan only really matters if you're playing for the narrative -- which I assume with a game like this most people are. However, it would be neat if keeping your caravan alive actually mattered.

    Something like:

    - 'if you starve for 14 days in a row you lose' type scenario.
    - Harsher penalities for starving (like a chance for your heroes to be injured by starvation?)
    - Or perhaps for every day you starve, you lose 1 renown... that would pinch a bit.

    I want to care about my caravan, and mostly I do. But I seem to get to a point where supplies are so hard to come by that it's not worth the effort of keeping anyone fed. And that's a huge flaw I think.
    I personally find the gaming of starvation a large immersion breaking factor.

    Is there any consideration of a hotfix that brings back starvation into either story or combat mechanics? A combat hotfix would be pretty easy. Every x days of starvation, your heroes get an injury.

    I know there may be a patch within the next month, and I suppose worse case I'll take a break until it's patched. But all of those seemingly agonizing decisions about supplies early game just seemed to be pointless. Ah well... But a hotfix would be awesome

  16. #16
    Senior Member Kuba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finjinimo View Post
    - Or perhaps for every day you starve, you lose 1 renown... that would pinch a bit.
    This is a bad idea, since supplies are bought with renown. This way you would take resources from player to make things right (buy supplies for renown).

  17.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #17
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    Yes patch is coming soon, not "weeks", 1-2 weeks it would seem

  18. #18
    Senior Member roder's Avatar
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    just make an endgame score, tally up your clansmen, fighters, varl and how many people you saved throughout your journey (including event prompts) and how many people you killed along the way (dredge, varl, humans)

    this is probably the most natural way to make it matter and we can also compare scores with friends, who is more viking!

  19. #19
    Senior Member Yellow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roder View Post
    just make an endgame score, tally up your clansmen, fighters, varl and how many people you saved throughout your journey (including event prompts) and how many people you killed along the way (dredge, varl, humans)

    this is probably the most natural way to make it matter and we can also compare scores with friends, who is more viking!
    I have to disagree, as a person who has never cared about game stats/archivements, this would only look in my eyes as a "cheap solution" to what can be considered the game biggest flaw. It would feel very hollow and it would by no means fix anything really, is like having a leek on the roof and putting some tape on it...
    "Forged by Fire; Empowered by Passion"

  20. #20
    I don't think just adding negatives to starvation is enough, though.

    There's little incentive for having a larger army since battles scale to that number and there is none for having clansmen since they are only a drain on your resources.
    Fighters/Varl and clansmen should have a purpose, beyond draining supplies.
    There has to be some way that rewards you for having a larger army, without making it impossible because events brought your caravan into starvation. Perhaps some bonus renown or pillaged supplies based on your armies size.
    And perhaps have clansmen gather stuff during rest; occasionally adding to your supply, finding something that boost moral or returning with an item (with a chance of losing some of them to various dangers).

    So even if starvation brings downside with it, you are still better off never letting anyone on and taking choices that cost you men.

    A strength penalty for fighting while starved shouldn't be too hard, right?
    I also like the idea of people heroes included) leaving and fighting against your own fighters, perhaps even a game over because you starved to death.
    Last edited by Poison_Berrie; 01-21-2014 at 10:19 AM.

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