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  1. #1
    Junior Member Harmoniker's Avatar
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    Where I can buy the game (except steam)?

    Hi,

    in your FAQ I read about a DRM-free version:
    https://thebannersaga.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ

    Where I can buy these DRM-free version? I have checked all possibilities: Steam, Gamefly, GameStop, Uplay and GamerGate.
    All these shops are using DRM, or am I wrong?

    Thank you!

  2.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #2
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    Coming to GoG soon

  3. #3
    Junior Member Harmoniker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    Coming to GoG soon
    Thanks! I have looked at gog.com. When will it be released? Since two weeks you can read "coming soon", without exact release date. This is very unusual for GOG.com....

  4. #4
    Humble Store is already available. Though I just checked and apparently it's not DRM-free there, a shame, Stoic!

  5. #5
    Backer Korica's Avatar
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    Is there any particular reason people want a DRM-free copy? I understand when people have an issue with DRM on physical games, but digital games? If you don't have access to the internet all the time you can just run Steam in off-line mode.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Korica View Post
    Is there any particular reason people want a DRM-free copy? I understand when people have an issue with DRM on physical games, but digital games? If you don't have access to the internet all the time you can just run Steam in off-line mode.
    The problem with DRM is not whether it's digital or physical. I'm assuming your point is that digital implies internet connection and I assume you are essentially talking about always-online-DRM, but the problem with DRM is that you don't own your game/music/movies/etc, you don't have the freedom to use it unless you conform to strict limitations. In the worst cases the problem is compounded by the DRM being an active hindrance too. In any case, most people can accept the need of an internet connection to download their game, but not to play it. The reasons why always-online-DRM poses a multitude of problems not found in a simple one-time-only requirement to download the game should be self-evident.

  7. #7
    Backer Korica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tychoxi View Post
    I'm assuming your point is that digital implies internet connection and I assume you are essentially talking about always-online-DRM, but the problem with DRM is that you don't own your game/music/movies/etc, you don't have the freedom to use it unless you conform to strict limitations.
    I really don't see any hindrance at all. Like I said, Steam has an offline mode. Internet required to download, but not to play. If my internet goes out for a week I can still play Banner Saga all I want in Steam's offline mode.

    The only "strict limitation" is ... it's linked to your Steam account, so you can't have two people playing one digital copy simultaneously? Is that really an issue?

  8. #8
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    The problem with DRM is that people doesn't really know what they are talking about and this thing usually makes them suspicious and evil about what they don't fully understand

    Just the same topic as "Factions is pay2win".

    As for the topic itself - steam-version of TBS can be played in offline mode (as Korica said), it doesn't require any internet connection apart from downloading the game and patches when they come. Also steam-version is auto-patched as soon as the patch comes out, dunno how it will be done for DRM-free version Stoic is planning to release (apart from GOG.com release they've mentioned another way of delivery, can't remember what it was, check the website).

    As for the " the problem with DRM is that you don't own your game/music/movies/etc" issue - you still don't own them with DRM-free version. Cause, you know, Stoic owns them
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Yellow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by netnazgul View Post
    The problem with DRM is that people doesn't really know what they are talking about and this thing usually makes them suspicious and evil about what they don't fully understand
    Am sorry but that is a rather silly and ignorant way of putting it out.

    To answer both you and Korica:

    As others have pointed out, the issue with steam is not the always-online-DRM(as already said, it can be access in offline mode), even so, there is still DRM imposed upon the customer, you need to register and download a 3rd party program in order to then have access to the game you just brought. What is even worse, if you actually read the terms of agreement on Steam, it clearly says that Steam has the right and power to simply shut down the service when ever they want(while this would be quite extraordinary if it happens, the chance is still there), by doing so you loose everything that was associated to your steam account, including the ability to play any game you owned there, and all this with no monetary refund.
    Steam also has the power and right to simply ban users when ever they want(cancelling their ability to access their account and/or anything associated with it), and while most of the time they ban users with reason(they were hacking) sometimes mistakes are made, their "VAC ban(s) on record" system is far from the best.

    DRM free versions are far more customer friendly, you simply buy the product, install it and have access to it, with no need to register any codes, no need to install any 3rd party programs, or register in any 3rd party website etc etc, and what is most important you actually own what you purchased.

    Quote Originally Posted by netnazgul View Post

    As for the " the problem with DRM is that you don't own your game/music/movies/etc" issue - you still don't own them with DRM-free version. Cause, you know, Stoic owns them
    YOU DO OWN the copy of the product you got, Stoic does not own that copy you have as you suggested. You are not purchasing a license to use a product on GoG.com as you do on Steam, on GoG.com you are purchasing a copy of the product, wich makes you the owner of it. Once the files are on your computer you can do with them what ever you want.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I particularly don't have a huge issue with using Steam, tho i try to not be dependent of it as much as i can, if there is a DRM free version of a game i want, i rather get that one. Steam is in my eyes a lesser evil, it offers a few good services such as auto update, discounts and specially it's whole community/social side: Steam chat and voice chat, steam groups, friend list and so on, but as mentioned it has its down side, that being that it is an imposed DRM.
    I see steam being very good for multiplayer/competitive games, but for single player there is no need for it to be a "must use".
    Last edited by Yellow; 01-25-2014 at 06:50 AM.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Rensei's Avatar
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    I hate Steam and still refuse to install oRIGIN, but like others said - it never really is Your game, even if You buy a physical copy. Digital copies and online restrictions simply made it apparent.
    Steam has offline mode that many games have the decency to support and it has been promised that should they ever shut down the service, they will remove all Steam-related restrictions, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
    Last edited by Rensei; 01-25-2014 at 07:03 AM.

  11.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #11
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    GoG next week hopefully. I read from John's reply to someone who mailed in.

    Well I think netnazgul was referring to the IP. In a manner of speaking the transaction between Stoic and consumer is only licensing. Even if you "buy a copy" of the game, you couldn't very well claim it as your IP or as a product you created and then make money by selling it. To do so would be piracy. So in the sense that Stoic maintains the intellectual and commercial rights to The Banner Saga, it's their game, and the customer basically buys a lifetime license.

    If the customer happens to sell it second hand, that's more like a gray area. If the customer copies the files and sells the game to friends, that's a gray area getting darker...and if the customer copies the files and sells the game for profit as something like a business, that's piracy.
    Last edited by raven2134; 01-25-2014 at 08:49 AM.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Yellow's Avatar
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    I dont really think anybody meant the IP, but if that was the case, then well ofcourse, the IP is one thing, the copy of a product is another...

    If you buy a brand new BMW you do not own the BMW name/brand, but you do own the single car you purchased(that particular copy of that particular model), and are free to do with it as you please...

    It would be different if you were renting the car in stead of buying it, that would be more or less what Steam or any other 3rd party DRM system does, restricts the consumer rights...
    Last edited by Yellow; 01-25-2014 at 11:51 AM.
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  13. #13
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    What I meant about owning a copy and it's resources is that it was mentioned "you do not own music/movies/etc" and you don't own them even if you buy a drm-free physical copy, as you can't use those to produce (and sell) anything else based on it. Don't know about the BMW metaphor here, probably it still applies So everything what raven said.

    As for the Steam - yes, you sound reasonable this time. Still I don't think Steam will be closed in any forseeable future, and Steam banning me looks a very unprobable event, so it's more like potential problem for me, but not really expected. That's why I think DRM-free versions doesn't really have any advantage over Steam ones apart from that ephemeral denial of steam service issue. As for now it is more likely for you to lose the DRM-free electronic copy of the game due to HDD fail or to lose physical copy of the game due to any possible reason than to lose Steam copy of it.


    PS: Also about GOG.com - I don't like them due to them earning money on games that were released eons ago and their dev/publisher even disappeared since. So they just make a dosbox bundle of a game (which you can do yourself in 10 minutes absolutely free) and sell it. Feels cheating
    Last edited by netnazgul; 01-26-2014 at 03:49 AM.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Yellow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by netnazgul View Post
    What I meant about owning a copy and it's resources is that it was mentioned "you do not own music/movies/etc" and you don't own them even if you buy a drm-free physical copy, as you can't use those to produce (and sell) anything else based on it. Don't know about the BMW metaphor here, probably it still applies So everything what raven said.
    Ok so at the end you were taking about trading license/IP ? as i said to raven well of course nobody owns an IP by buying a 20 dollar copy of a game, this one is self explinatory... however, just so you know, you can re-sell any product you own(in the case of video games, its harder, specially if they are in a digital form, but as long as they are drm free the possibility is there) because you are the owner of it(not of the IP but of that particular copy of that product)

    Quote Originally Posted by netnazgul View Post
    As for the Steam - yes, you sound reasonable this time. Still I don't think Steam will be closed in any forseeable future, and Steam banning me looks a very unprobable event, so it's more like potential problem for me, but not really expected. That's why I think DRM-free versions doesn't really have any advantage over Steam ones apart from that ephemeral denial of steam service issue. As for now it is more likely for you to lose the DRM-free electronic copy of the game due to HDD fail or to lose physical copy of the game due to any possible reason than to lose Steam copy of it.
    You also have a virtual copy of any games you purchased on GoG.com, in your GoG.com account, a copy that you can access anywhere at any time, and re-download as many times you wish, it also comes with tons of extra content that Steam does not offers, such as full soundtracks for most games, manuals, making off videos, avatars, wallpapers, artwors, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by netnazgul View Post
    PS: Also about GOG.com - I don't like them due to them earning money on games that were released eons ago and their dev/publisher even disappeared since. So they just make a dosbox bundle of a game (which you can do yourself in 10 minutes absolutely free) and sell it. Feels cheating
    In this you might be mistaken or bad informed, GoG.com does not sells abandonware, they release it for free, games such as :

    -ULTIMA™ 4: QUEST OF THE AVATAR
    -BENEATH A STEEL SKY
    -DRAGONSPHERE

    among many others, whose publishers/dev are not longer around, are given to for free to any and all members of GoG.com comunity, never sold. Not a single tittle they are selling is abandonware. Even those older games you see there, are there because they obtained the license to sell and distribute them, not because they stole them from anyware of because they were left unclaimed.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anyways am not trying to convert any body into a GoG.com customer, everybody is free to do as they wish.... but don't come to this thread saying that people who wish for a DRM free version of The banner saga, simply don't know what they are talking about, like you said in your previous post.
    "Forged by Fire; Empowered by Passion"

  15. #15
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yellow View Post
    Anyways am not trying to convert any body into a GoG.com customer, everybody is free to do as they wish.... but don't come to this thread saying that people who wish for a DRM free version of The banner saga, simply don't know what they are talking about, like you said in your previous post.
    Ok, issue cleared then
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by netnazgul View Post
    The problem with DRM is that people doesn't really know what they are talking about and this thing usually makes them suspicious and evil about what they don't fully understand
    Seems to me the problem is more of you not understanding what DRM-free is... if you don't see Steam as DRM because of offline-mode, you're wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rensei View Post
    Steam has offline mode that many games have the decency to support and it has been promised that should they ever shut down the service, they will remove all Steam-related restrictions, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
    ... and as far as I know, this is pretty much a myth. A nasty, hard to kill one, but a myth. At least I haven't seen ANYONE being able to point out a source where Mr. Gabe Newell or some other officials from Valve claimed that. Also, as pointed out by Yellow, Steam's terms of agreement state otherwise.
    So yeah, source or it never occurred.

    Quote Originally Posted by netnazgul View Post
    Still I don't think Steam will be closed in any forseeable future, and Steam banning me looks a very unprobable event, so it's more like potential problem for me, but not really expected. That's why I think DRM-free versions doesn't really have any advantage over Steam ones apart from that ephemeral denial of steam service issue.
    Who foresaw the closure of Games for Windows Live 5 years ago, with a behemoth like Microsoft behind it? Unlikely with Steam? Yes. Even more unlikely nobody stepping in, buying it up and continuing the service? Yes. Not possible? Nope.
    Also see Direct2Drive which was bought by Gamefly - not all games you bought on D2D made it over to the new store. If you had games that didn't made it, you had a specific timeframe to download them, before loosing them completely, despite that you had put money down.

    If you don't see any advantage for DRM-free or not, doesn't matter. Fact is, a DRM-free version was promised and all pledging with that in mind, likely didn't read it as "we'll eventually provide a DRM-free version whenever we get around to it and backers that prefer DRM-free, will just have to wait xx days/weeks".

    Quote Originally Posted by netnazgul View Post
    PS: Also about GOG.com - I don't like them due to them earning money on games that were released eons ago and their dev/publisher even disappeared since. So they just make a dosbox bundle of a game (which you can do yourself in 10 minutes absolutely free) and sell it. Feels cheating
    Some games are though as hell to get them running on newer systems. You'd prefer games vanishing completely or resorting to abandonware, who are pretty much illegal (most optimistic definition would be: gray area) but counting on companies not enforcing the law on old software?
    I'm not trying to convince you about GOG. But they are the legal alternative to abandonware and for that I cherish them.

    --------------

    To the devs:
    I see that you're a small team and why Steam was your priority / the game being build upon it and that you currently have to fight on other frontlines (king.com), too. And while I'm not among the impatient ones complaining, a lot others are. To quote from another user:
    "... like a vote of no-confidence in releasing DRM-free. It might not be such, but that's the impression it leaves. It almost certainly damages DRM-free sales of the game. And unfortunately for Stoic, it lowers the price I'll be willing to pay for the game."

    That's the way a non-backer feels. Imagine how backers going with DRM-free as a principle (yes, they do exist and their numbers are growing) might see it. To be honest, I'm surprised not more spoken out on this board and I called them out (the backers) to do so instead of ranting on GOG. However, I feel this is a issue you should tackle head-on. So please, head over to GOG.com, see for yourself and communicate about the why, where you're at and when you hope to achieve it with little status updates - I'm sure it will help you tremendously.

    As it is right now, you're loosing good will and that fast.

  17. #17
    Superbacker netnazgul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siannah View Post
    Seems to me the problem is more of you not understanding what DRM-free is... if you don't see Steam as DRM because of offline-mode, you're wrong.
    Well, I didn't say that Steam is DRM-free, so don't blame me on that

    Quote Originally Posted by Siannah View Post
    If you don't see any advantage for DRM-free or not, doesn't matter. Fact is, a DRM-free version was promised and all pledging with that in mind, likely didn't read it as "we'll eventually provide a DRM-free version whenever we get around to it and backers that prefer DRM-free, will just have to wait xx days/weeks".
    This point of view is understandable, but given their devteam size they probably had 2 choices - either to release the game on Steam right away and then work on DRM-free version, working on bugs in parallel, or delay the game further for simultaneous (which is usually difficult) launch. Guess what was the best option.

    Summing this up with XKCD https://xkcd.com/1172/
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  18.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #18
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    I heard John saying the plan was for this week, but we will have to see

  19. #19
    Junior Member Harmoniker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    I heard John saying the plan was for this week, but we will have to see
    !

  20. #20
    Junior Member Harmoniker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven2134 View Post
    I heard John saying the plan was for this week, but we will have to see
    Good to hear. Some news from John? Can we expect the release in the next few days?
    Last edited by Harmoniker; 02-02-2014 at 04:19 PM.

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