Yes...
No...
I had a discussion in chat about the Backbiter because I had an idea.
You should change the ability of the Backbiters. That would be fair and I think better than the ability by 4 fields to run what is actually being used at only 90% against archers. Therefore, the BB would be much more interesting, I think.
On R1: Armor Damage 2 (2 fields Teleport)
On R2: Armor Damage 3 (2 fields Teleport)
On R3: Armor Damage 4 (2 fields Teleport)
After this it can be set from 12 STR again.
mfg
EinarNordwin
is the backbiter still doing str damage after the armor damage? because the ability would be even more broken if it still did. Even if it didn't do strength damage, the fact that you HAVE to address the high str BB in the back of your army while dealing with all the threats up front would pretty much make the BB a stronger version of the thrasher (ie no need to build ab, high stats with guaranteed damage based on wp)
Sure, normal strength damage after the teleport.Originally Posted by KamikazeDurrrp
The advantage of the trashers is still a Guaranteed damage even with Strength 1 on each unit, as long as he has Will Power. The Backbiter Still Needs Strength to do Damage.
To use the Backbiter Your strategy would make him a sort of Teleport Melee archer. With the difference that he was dead after his first attack. If I have understood correctly.
It makes more sense to give him good armor and strength, so that he after the first attack still survives.
Just as the Backbiter at the moment is: up to 4 fields teleport behind the lines and then try to land with Strength 10 is ridiculous. Any other Raider class is significantly better. Now, we could reduce the strength of the Raidmaster and Trashers to 10, which would also be a solution.
My concern is to find a reasonable solution for the Backbiter, which was supposed to OP. What I incidentally found Preposterous. To reduce it as the only Raider to Strength 10 is not. To limit its reach and to enlarge rather than his Armor Break is interesting. It would defuse it in my opinion as an archer killer and make a nice supplement to the Raider class.
There may be a better idea. But the Developer should revise the Backbiters special ability and not simply deduct two strength. For me, it has always looked after a quick shot solution from lack of motivation or inspiration.
The Developers have really done a good job with the game. I play it still appreciated after two years. But the Backbiter solution was a shot in the pants.
I can not change it if it remains in Str 10 and I use the Backbiter still, even if only as a protest. ^ ^ But to be quite honest, for the (in my opinion) not OP BB there would have been a better solution.
If anyone has creative ideas, I would be very curious
I would like to see a small buff to the BB too. I am not a strategy expert, but I have played many hours and I daresay that BB is the Raider I least fear.
I am of the mind that all units belonging in the same base-class should have the same min-max stats, and only the ability should be tweaked to balance them. Here, I quote myself from a year-old post about how Run-Through (RT) could be changed to address the problem of BB being UP.
Einar, I think that your suggestions: { fixed RT-range of 2 tiles, AB=2/3/4 for Rank=1/2/3 , 12STR max } would make the BB extremely OP. If that guy gets anywhere close to an archer, it's instakill!
Together we stand, divided we fall.
Class you understood my point, that's the point. Same class but different min max values. A solution must be found, but subtract 2 Str is simply not acceptable.
I do not understand your suggestion, most shortcuts (AB? RT is the Teleport i think) do not say anything to me, can you explain more?
Yeah, but with a only 2 tiles teleport he cant reach an archer if you Keep a bit an eye on it, i think.
Hehe, yeahI use a lot of abbreviations. Here is what they mean:
- ARM = ARMor (unit stat)
- STR = STRength (unit stat)
- AB = Armor Break (unit stat)
- BB = BackBiter (promoted unit class, of the Raider base-class)
- RT = Run Through (BB's active ability, what you probably refer to as "Teleport")
- RT-AB = The AB damage done at each unit (enemy or ally) during the execution of the RT and before BB finally attack the STR of the target.
So, that list of suggestions in my previous post shows many different ways of changing how the RT works, by keeping the "main ingredient" intact: That the BB can penetrate through other units. Your suggestion could be #10 in that list
Please note that I didn't refer to the BB's min/max stats, because I think they should be the same for all Raiders, in the first place!
Together we stand, divided we fall.
Look, if your suggestions came through, all I would use is a 3BB build, and I would render most archer completely useless. Also, 2 "tiles" is a lot when trying to reach an archer. Assuming an archer has five range, you could reach an archer within 6 tiles, and only need 1 wp to do not only 2 armor damage, but 5 str damage or more to any archer (assuming BB 12 str, archer max armor 9). And sure, it'd be easy to prevent 1 BB from reaching your archer, but 3? You do remember 4BB back in the day right? Plus, it's not just the fact that it would destroy archer, it would pretty outclass a lot of raider options too. 2 guaranteed armor damage WITH a strength hit is nothing to laugh at. Just the fact that I have guaranteed armor damage means like the thrasher, I can build the BB for max stats and it would be really hard to stop. Also, you keep calling it a 2-tile teleport, but the reality is it's not the "teleport" that makes the BB strong, but the ability to do a large amount of damage from such a large distance (think how strong BM is right now). Utility is worthless without damage (I'm tired of telling people that -____-) and with 12 str AND a 2 tile teleport, you're giving the BB more power than you ever could with the BB teleporting 4 tiles.
Look, I don't like the 10 str nerf either, but as long as the BB can continue to do str damage after the armor hit he will always be OP with the higher strength. The higher mobility combined with the guaranteed armor damage combined with increasing returns with higher str basically makes the BB RT a jack of all trades skill, something that would become even stronger with your suggested change. I just don't think it's right for one skill to do so much. Mobility, armor break, str damage, one of those aspects have to be removed before any return to 12 str for the BB should even be considered.
In theory, yes. But in reality it looks different. I have played 3 BB builds, and it is impossible to achieve against an experienced player the archers. He Placed at the "back wall" of the Map so that you can not at all run through it and Placed his Vikings before. So you would have to run around the Vikings to get him from the side. This is impossible from the reach forth. Now he can advance his melee and his archers except reach. It is even with 3 BBs very difficult to reach the archers and then it costs so much that it is unfortunately not worth the sacrifice (much Willpower for +tiles and Willpower for the ability too). One reason why I gave up the 3 BB build. Sure you can reach an archer in l
In my experience, it gets easier after the third round, but until then, a lot has happened.
I think the problem is that the BB's armour damage followed by strength damage is what made him too powerful. At 10 strength, his ability still adds a lot, but it doesn't make him do huge amounts of damage. I think a full health BB should never do more strength damage than he does now on a run through. So as long as his strength + run through armour break = 12, it seems good.
The issue with him as I see it, and judging by your last post, you might agree, is that run through gives the BB the possibility of attacking units that are out of reach behind other units, but it is so easy to negate that ability through some rather simple positioning. Most of the time, what a BB can do, a thrasher or raidmaster could arguably have done better, and an archer could have done more safely. Basically, I'd like the range of run through increased by 1 range at all levels. The idea is that he'd reach those pesky archers easier, but not do any more damage than he does now. Though, this could make him do too much armour damage to multiple targets, so perhaps that would have to be adjusted (maybe 11 strength and 1 armour break on RT). It doesn't help against opponents who line up along the back, for them other units and other tactics are necessary, but it would help in most other situations I think.
Anyway, feel free to poke holes in my idea.
Last edited by Brackstone; 03-03-2014 at 06:50 PM. Reason: typo
What i dislike is the Argument "add the Ability" to the normal Str damage from the Backbiter.
If i add the Ability from the Raidmaster to his armor he have 19 armor thats realy OP.
If i "add" the Ability from the Trashhacker to his normal Str damage its Powerfull too and OP if i striped him down to Str 1. All Other non Armor Break Vikings was Useless after reach a low Str Level, but the Trashhacker do still a decent damage.
Thats the Reason i say Change the Ability from the BB.
For any other Raider I have also normal to use the alternative it without ever using his ability . The Raidmaster can attack with 12 strength +Willpower without his ability , as well as the Trashhacker.
The only Raider of its ability inserting MUST to 12 strength damage-dealing is the Backbiter . In addition, he can not amplify with Will Power this attack. This is a serious drawback , especially since you then often comes through the teleport in unfavorable situations .
So Backbiter: 10 Strength +3 Willpower = 13 attack
Raidmaster or Trashhacker 12 Strength +3 Willpower = 15 attack . THAT is what I call OP compared to the BB . Whatever way it want to solve that. I want the Backbiter have the opportunity to be able to normally attack with Will Power and to be as effective as the other Raiders.
The possibility to use the Teleport ability of BBs makes sense does not arise as often as it is associated with risks. And in the countless matches with my BBs I could rarely run through several opponents.
Next to could run through enemy brings the BB is not much, you still need WP to get into position for the teleport and if it only not comes to the flanks, and the fields are Blocked behind the archers (by the card edge or other units) brings further teleporting nothing.
Also, I want the RAIDmaster by MY choice to inserting and not just as an archer killer. Every other Raider I can finally use them for multiple destinations. The more the BB will specialize in archer killing the more one takes players the possibility to use it flexibly.
The arguments denote the BB with 12 strength as OP, I have never felt as logical and do not do it still. Even though I Respect that some see it that way.
It may be that many consider the BB as an archer killer class. But Banner Saga Factions is a strategy game and there are now so many classes that are used in a very creative and unusual way. That is the appeal of the game. At the moment much less flexible is the BB, by the changes, can be used.
What Brackstone meant is that the 10STR BB, using the RT, can do an STR damage "as if" he was a 12STR unit, while also doing a "free" 2AB. And all that with just 1WP (Willpower). Considering you have your BB at 10STR and 3AB, there are very specific condition when it's actually worth spending the 1WP on RT:
- If you do a straight 3AB, adding the 1WP: You do 4AB (i.e. 4 damage)
- When target ARM is two points higher than the BB's STR: You do 2AB and 1STR damage (total 3 damage)
- When target ARM is one point higher than the BB's STR: You do 2AB and 1STR damage (total 3 damage)
- When target ARM is equal to the BB's STR: You do 2AB and 2STR damage (total 4 damage)
- When target ARM is one point lower than the BB's STR: You do 2AB and 3STR damage (total 5 damage)
So, from that list above, we can see that spending 1WP on RT is preferred over a straight AB attack only when the target's ARM is lower than BB STR. If you increase his STR to 12, that would make all units of 11ARM (or less) good targets for RT... Adding the mobility on top of that, is just too much!
Together we stand, divided we fall.
Yes, but the trash hacker does 3-7 damage with 1 Willpower (4-7 depends on luck and adjacent allies). Even with thickness 1 against any target, regardless of the armor and that is not OP? The difference is you can let him attack targeted, he does not end up forced behind a unit.
And the Raidmaster? Him can you safely on the battlefield placement and for 1 Willpower give 15 armor is indestructible if you do not do at least 16 damage on.
That is to say: All Raider have their strengths and weaknesses. But the only Raider to be denoted by countless arguments as OP is the BB. Logically? For me, definitely not.
Here's how I see the spending of 1WP on the three Raiders' Rank-1 abilities:
Thrasher (TH): Bloody Flail (BF) deals ~3.66 damage, excluding adjacency bonuses. Assuming your TH is at 12STR (and 2AB max), you probably wouldn't use it unless you are at low STR.
Raidmaster (RM): StoneWall (SW) absorbs up to 3 damage. This is only worth using when at full-ARM (10-12) or when the opponent's effective STR is low and you somehow want to advance on them. On all other situations, it is much better using the 1WP to do 4 AB damage, assuming the RM is statted at 3AB.
Backbiter (BB): Run-Through (RT) does 2 damage, adding a bonus that depends on the STR-ARM difference. Assuming that your BB is statted at 3AB, the 1WP is well-spent only if your STR is at least equal to enemy ARM.
So, to summarize, all Raider abilities amount to about 3-4 points of damage dealt or absorbed, and in these sense are balanced.
If you ask me, the main problem with BB is that RT does not synergize with the Raider passive -- Shieldwall. Because, BF & SW both get a bonus from standing next to an ally. But, with RT, you'll normally move far away from allies unless you can circle the enemy so that you RT him and end up next to the ally you started next to.
Last edited by Aleonymous; 03-04-2014 at 11:07 AM. Reason: typos
Together we stand, divided we fall.
I agree 100%. It's not the fault of the BB that people give their Raiders no 12 armor. Therefore, the strength of the BBS on 10 Reduce?? Ridiculous.
Except the TH. I use his ability often at full strength and my most enemies also. Normally I use a normal attack only against archers or weak opponents where the ability then not worth if you can kill him or do as much damage deducts that he is useless anyway.
OOT:
You give your THs 2 AB? Interestingly, I had already been thinking.
My THs look like this: 10ARM 12STR 5WP 2EXT 1AB. I could remove 1 WP, but it has me so often the butt saved, I fear that I would fret about it. What is your setting?
Last edited by EinarNordwin; 03-04-2014 at 12:18 PM.
To clarify things: The most powerful feature of RT (in my opinion) is that he can "move through units", breaking formations to get to protected units etc. That is especially dangerous at Rank-3. Now, what made the 12STR BB overpowered is that RT overall damage was too much when a full-STR attacked the "weakest" units of the game, the Archers; for example, an 8ARM unit would suffer 2ARM+6STR=8 damage (!) for just one 1WP. And, giving Archers higher ARM was just wrong. So, we can to where we are now...
About the Thrasher, I never use 2AB on him, because of BF
Together we stand, divided we fall.
Before you think of changing the back biter I have a question for you all.
Have any of you treated your backbiter like you would a warrior or a SRM?
A back biter joining the fight when it is down to a 4vs4 and 3vs3 at full stats can be devastating. He not only has the ability to take damage from things he only wants to take damage from (You can use your ability to position yourself so only the enemy you hit can hit you, this becomes possible as the game progresses). He also is able to do strength and armour break in the late game. This means that not only are your archers safer from taking strength damage. They also get extra puncture points.
A backbiter should be looked at your utility raider. He isn't the one to run up to someone and slug it out in the middle of the field. He is the one who hides behind those who do that, then strikes and dominates the game.
Don't change what isn't broken
Stream : www.twitch.tv/tirean
Twitter : https://twitter.com/Tireantheklutz
Youtube : http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1vJ...?feature=watch
I've used him like that a couple of times, mostly due to how the course of the match went, but he didn't seem all that more effective in that role than most other units, and arguably less so than the varl who typically occupy such a position. Maybe I need to try that strategy right from the beginning of the match, but I find the movement benefits of RT become less pronounced by the end of the match as more gaps open up in the enemy here and there, not to mention a wounded BB is much less effective than a wounded varl in such a role.
I agree that he isn't broken, but right now he doesn't stand out in any way either. I'd sooner see him stay the same than be changed radically, but I think he could use a little extra something.
I'll agree with Brackstone. Saving a fresh unit until near-endgame can most times pay-off, especially if its a stat-tank (any Varl), a mini-Varl (11ARM/12STR TH) or a breaker (RM or BB). Archers are the most vulnerable in that spot, i.e. when the board opens-up...
What I do agree 100% with Tirean is that the BB is (arguably) the most versatile unit in the board. Not because of his stats variety, but because of his ability.
Together we stand, divided we fall.
Yes and the boring is the archer Survived this attack. 8 armor -2 = 6 armor, with 12 strength I do then 6 damage. So the archer remain 2HP and he can still ARM breaking. It was also so stated already above that it's too easy to protect these weak units. Even against 3 BB builds, unfortunately.To clarify things: The most powerful feature of RT (in my opinion) is that he can "move through units", breaking formations to get to protected units etc. That is especially dangerous at Rank-3. Now, what made the 12STR BB overpowered is that RT overall damage was too much when a full-STR attacked the "weakest" units of the game, the Archers; for example, an 8ARM unit would suffer 2ARM+6STR=8 damage (!) for just one 1WP. And, giving Archers higher ARM was just wrong. So, we can to where we are now...
About the Thrasher, I never use 2AB on him, because of BF
Yes I use R2 THs. Do you use R1 THs in your P12 builds? Remarkable that the three WP enough, i have to think about it. With 2 THs on R1 i could raise my remaining Vikings on R3.
@Tirean
Nice Idea but i agree with Brackstone in this Point.
@Brackstone
I do think they have the BB mutilated. Radical changes I do not want too, but a change that allows me to him even in the middle to use on the battlefield when I consider that to be necessary. For this he needs the 12 strength. It's nice that he is extremely well suited to act sneaky, but limiting it robbed me of several possibilities Tactical.
The ability of the RMs is, for example, rather passive, but I got him likely to be used as aggressor with 12 STR if I had some kind of idea (build). The same applies to the TH. I've seen builds with 9 Strength 11 armor and massive EXT and WP. It makes the great appeal of the game from which you can try out such unusual tactics and it works.
The BB is so deprived but this possibility. Im Sorry but i see that so.
TH, RM and BM are the units that I usually keep to rank-1 when I bring them in p12 builds. That is unless I have a non-standard plan in mind! For RM and BM, I rarely use more than rank-1 ability, and the +stats don't make a big difference, in my opinion. As for the TH, he's the only unit on which you can max-out ARM & STR at rank-1, without sacrificing functionality! All Varl units, I try to have them at rank-3. Not really for the high-rank abilities, but for the +stats.
I was curious, back in the 12STR BB days, what stats did people typically use on the BB? Now, rank-1 BB is like 10ARM/10STR/4WP/2EX/3AB... So to get to 12STR, I'd lower AB and EX to 2 and 1, respectively. He doesn't seem all that bad!
Together we stand, divided we fall.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote