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Thread: Which units in the campaign are you most interested in playing on factions?

  1. #1
    Member Tatski's Avatar
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    Which units in the campaign are you most interested in playing on factions?

    I'm most excited about using Spearmaster(spearmen) in factions. I think his skill needs a bit of tweaking, but having a unit capable of attacking/breaking diagonally will give us pretty interesting builds and tactics.

  2. #2
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Spearmaster definitely gives another "dimension" to Factions metagaming, with the 2-tile attack range. His passive and active are also great. I guess much of how well he does depend on his stats too. I'd expect him to have low ARM and low AB.

    I'd also like to see GrudgeWielder & EagleEye. I think their actives don't need much tweaking...
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

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    Member Tatski's Avatar
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    EagleEye is the most faction ready unit IMO. I think she needs to have a good armor since she needs to get into enemy range to make most of her active ability, she needs to have good break too and maybe finally nerfing BMs AB to 1
    Landsmen are also interesting, but I'm unsatisfied with my performance using the Eirik the Warden on saga, maybe because I have enough bonus WP on most of my matches and as for hunters, well Rooks skill is very strong.
    I think Spearmen has somewhat similar role with archers, Low AB and rely on their WP to deal good damage. Among all the units Spearmen will have the most effect factions meta game.

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    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatski View Post
    (1) EagleEye is the most faction ready unit
    (2) I'm unsatisfied with my performance using the Eirik the Warden on saga
    (3) as for hunters, well Rooks skill is very strong.
    (4) Among all the units Spearmen will have the most effect factions meta game.
    (1) Aye. Thread-the-Needle may sound OP at first, but my experience showed that you either have to be extra-bold to take a good shot, or risk hitting allies too. That might be good for disposing of maimed WHs or other less-than-2AB dead-weights (e.g. 0AB WLs, 1AB SRMs etc).

    (2) I believe that Landsmen passive, Light-Step, can be extremely useful in Factions. Warden could be that unit that makes an early attack, gets maimed, goes back, spends half the match boosting others (Rally is infinite-range!) only to come up and sweep the board with high ARM & AB.

    (3) Yeah. Hunter's Mark-Prey and hybrid melee/ranged attack is severely IMBA.

    (4) I was thinking that an interesting nerf to the Spearmen would be this: Attack-range is exactly 2-tiles (not 1 or 2). To moderate this, perhaps the melee-STR-attack can suffer a penalty, e.g. -2STR.

    Another interesting thing introduced in the Saga that would be cool in Factions (apart from item stat-boosts & "special" abilities, e.g. save-from-death, +Stat on rest etc.) is the hybrid-class-abilities: Warrior's Passive + Strongarm's Active...
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  5. #5
    I really don't think spearman needs a change to attack range at all, I'd say he's the unit most ready to go into factions. Reduce his max armour a little and I think he'd be in a pretty good position, but of course only time will tell. He's the unit I'm most excited for because I'd like to see in what situations people decide to take him over a raider. I could see Spearmen becoming very useful on the more cramped maps. He also passively removes one of the benefits of the BB (attacking units blocked by other units), so it would be interesting to see if they get used like BBs sometimes. All that without even mentioning the synergies he has with units like the strongarm and provoker. Definitely the coolest new unit in my opinion.

    The warden is really interesting to me too, because I think he'd affect how people statted their units (ie give units less wp since the Warden hands it out like candy), not to mention whether he'd be useful in actual combat or just as an endgame sweeper. He's also probably about ready to be introduced into factions, maybe with some minor adjustments to stats.

    Hunter and Mender both need some serious work to make them reasonable in Factions, so I wouldn't expect them for a while. That said, if their abilities stay roughly the same in terms of use (but not power), they'd both probably have the biggest impact on the game.

    As for the EE, I still do think she is too powerful. I've said as much in the chat before, and in far more detail, so I won't repeat it here, but I think the ability has far too much potential and that it wouldn't be nearly as hard to line up a decent shot in factions as it is in the single player. She'd either need a change to the ability, or some very different stats to keep her reasonable. That said, I could definitely see some scary and fun combos come about from EEs and WLs.

    But man I feel like a party pooper being down on the EE all the time.

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    Superbacker gripho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brackstone View Post
    As for the EE, I still do think she is too powerful. I've said as much in the chat before, and in far more detail, so I won't repeat it here, but I think the ability has far too much potential and that it wouldn't be nearly as hard to line up a decent shot in factions as it is in the single player. She'd either need a change to the ability, or some very different stats to keep her reasonable. That said, I could definitely see some scary and fun combos come about from EEs and WLs.
    Why would it be easier to line up units in Factions than in single player? On my opinion it would be the other way around: there are less units on the board in Factions, and a human player will probably think twice before putting his units in a straight line when you have an Eagle Eye in your team.

  7. #7
    Well, the first thing I'd say is think about how difficult it would be to keep 6 units in a decent formation (perhaps protecting archers and low armour warriors, while still making effective attacks), without several of them being within 5 spaces of each other in a column or row. Someone may be able to hold such a formation for a little while, but not for long. Also, certain maps like Great Hall can force units to stand closer. Finally, the singleplayer game has a tendency to spawn dredge rather spread out since there are so many of them and thanks to both the ai and some of their abilities (Back Off, Kindle), they usually stay that way.

    Keep in mind, this is not all fact, but hypothesis. I could be very wrong about this, but that's just the way I see it.

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    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brackstone View Post
    Keep in mind, this is not all fact, but hypothesis. I could be very wrong about this, but that's just the way I see it.
    That's why it should be put to the test, used by real-human and against real-human players
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

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    Member Tatski's Avatar
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    I expect the EE play somewhat similar with SA. Seasoned players are weary of what SnB can do and play around it. I think it is almost the same case with Thread the needle and it pretty much leave the both archers exposed if you are not careful. Although higher levels of TtN might be a bit op, I guess. But it can be tweaked. Like @level 1 only closest unit will receive the armor damage, @level 2 closest unit gets 2 armor damage, then 1 damage to the unit behind it and 3 2 1 armor damage for level 3 or something like that. I do not think that TtN as it is, is gamebreakingly OP, that remains to be seen. SNB was tweaked several times too I imagine playing against EE will be like playing against a WH or WM, once you get caught its over or will be a very steep uphill battle.
    For the Spearmasters, I do not have any problem with their stats nor his attack range, I usually attack with 2 spaces anyway. What I'm worried about is his ability, that bleed damage or forcing a unit to skip turn might too strong and very annoying.
    For landsmen specially the Warden I think he is fine they way he is, probably good with will power based builds. Light step is an interesting skill too, being able to move through friendly units is very handy, I hope they'd make a defensive landsmen, being able move through your units to block enemy paths will definetly annoy people :P.
    Last edited by Tatski; 03-11-2014 at 06:16 AM.

  10. #10
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatski View Post
    I expect the EE play somewhat similar with SA.
    What makes TtN more potent than SnB, is that it synergizes with Puncture. That can, indeed, be devastating! What's also a bit broken, is that TtN also hits adjacent units (when targeting one farther off), with Puncture... Perhaps this little detail can be tweaked. They only reason to maintain that, is the collateral damage to allies that balances the ability. So, if the EE is standing safely behind an ally unit, she risks severe damage to that one too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tatski View Post
    I hope they'd make a defensive landsmen, being able move through your units to block enemy paths will definetly annoy people :P.
    A hybrid unit with a StoneWall-active & LightStep-passive would be the most annoying
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatski View Post
    I do not think that TtN as it is, is gamebreakingly OP, that remains to be seen. SNB was tweaked several times too I imagine playing against EE will be like playing against a WH or WM, once you get caught its over or will be a very steep uphill battle.
    This is precisely the reason I think it might be op. It`s a unit with the high damage potential and ability to affect unit formations of a varl warrior, the size and mobility of a human unit and the versatility of an archer. The thing about the WH and WM is that their size limits their mobility, and they have trouble taking advantage of openings because of it. Until they get a decent opening, they tend to sit safely in the back, so as not to waste their high strength. An archer has no such issues, it can sit around taking potshots safely, dealing armour and health damage, waiting for an opening.

  12. #12
    Member Tatski's Avatar
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    I am more concerned about the WP effeciency of a high lvl TtN. On lvl 2, for 2 WP it can deal at least 6 effective damage 2arm and 1 or more str (assuming you are using it against 2 enemy units). If you are able to find a way for her to survive and do it again would be a huge advantage. I think TtN does not benefit much on puncture damage, because enemies needs to be perfectly lined up and needs to be within her puncture range, which is not likely to happen vs a human opponent and because of the limited number of units on board. IMO you almost have to sacrifice her ability to puncture and possibly spend a bit of WP for positioning to make most of TtN which I find interesting. Also after TtN leaves her dangerously close to the enemy, she is likely to be 2-3 tiles away from the closest enemy. Which makes the EE a high risk high reward unit. That being said I still think BM is still the most potent archer overall because she's easy to use and her ability to safely deal damage at full strength all through out the game is very powerful.
    Last edited by Tatski; 03-12-2014 at 10:28 AM.

  13. #13
    Junior Member natej11's Avatar
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    TtN's strengths are balanced by the fact that it's the only archer ability that requires her to be out in the open unless she wants to hit her own allies. Given how easily archers get picked off out in the open, positioning or moving an EE in order to get off a solid ability is awkward. If you move her into place you don't get the puncture bonus, if you stand her still she's out where any of their quick units can pick her off before she gets her turn. Moving her wall just before her turn so she could use her ability could work, but it's situational and requires a bit of skill.

    Is TtN overpowered? It's a strong ability, but only under the right situation. And if you ignore situational value everyone would be using warhawks with maxed strength.

    As for the unit I'd like to see, I'm with the people wanting spearmen. They'd probably have to give them reduced stats to make up for their range and the fact that they can attack diagonals, but you could do some fun things with them. And since it's an entirely new archetype they could put in 3 new classes along with it. Some potential abilities with spearmen classes could be throwing the spear for effects similar to impale but without the knockback (or vice versa), a passive 1 strength damage counterattack similar to Return the Favor, and/or an ability that does extra damage if they're attacking an enemy while behind an ally unit (to go with the shieldwall theme).

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