Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 90

Thread: Random Build Tournament

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    2,444

    Random Build Tournament

    It's been a long while since "Vigrid" , the last community-help tournament (organized by Butters), with a small exception of last summer's "Fight Club" (organized by roder). So, grumpyoldman and me, had the idea of running another small tournament, this summer, using the random-build "Factions Randomizer" applet, designed by Rensei.

    EDIT (March 2018): Check out my own Java-based randomizer too (forum link, download JAR)



    Would you, in the first place, be interested in such a small community-run tournament? If you agree to participate, please stick to your word and don't disappear midway!

    Proposed Rules Outline

    Here is an outline of the proposed rules, that are (of course) still under discussion. It's pretty standard and "open" stuff, so I don't think there will be much debate here.
    • A number of contestants equal to a power-of-2 (e.g. 32, 16, 8, 4 or 2!) is needed, set to fight in knock-out rounds.
    • Each knock-out round is Bo3 (best-of-three), meaning that the first player to win two battles progresses to the next round. We could also have Bo1 or Bo5, or we could leave that to the two contestants!
    • We could have a single bracket (i.e. once a player is eliminated, it's over for him/her) or pair of brackets, for "winners" and "losers". The latter means that the eliminated players have a second chance to win the trophy. This "double elimination" scheme was used in Vigrid; e.g. check here how I was knocked out of the "winners" bracket by raven (strange_carrots) but then had a second chance in the "losers" bracket, against roder(eve), but I lost again!
    • Matched pairs are seeded in random and are arranged by the two opponents in private (e.g. steam chat messages, or forum private-messages, or in the forum chat). It is preferred that at least one of the two opponents can stream the fights.
    • Finally, here's the juice: You cannot use your favorite build for the fights leading to the trophy, but you have to use a randomly generated build! (check below for more details on this)


    Random Builds Generation

    OK, now, here is a fun way we came up for using the Factions Randomizer in this tourney to decide the builds to be used in each knock-out round fights. This might sound a little complicated at first, so I provided some examples wherever possible. I expect a lot of discussion here.
    1. The two opponents provide a list of the units available in their barracks (ranks and classes), e.g. a snapshot of their barracks. The "greatest common divisor" of the two sets of units is extracted, forming the set of units that can make a build for both players. For example, if player #1 has seven units [ WM SM WL RM TH SA BM ] and player #2 has nine units [ WM SM RM TH 2xSA BM BB SS ], then the "greatest common divisor" set is [ WM SM RM TH SA BM ] (e.g. p#1 can't use his WL, and p#2 can't use BB,SS and his second SA).
    2. The randomizer is used to create X random builds, where X is the max number of matches in each knock-out round (e.g. X=3 in Best-of-3).
    3. The power of all X random builds is fixed, and is defined by the two opponents. For example one pair could choose p12, but another pair could choose p8.
    4. Valid random builds are only those containing units from the "greatest common divisor" set. This is to exclude situations where the randomizer produces a unit combination that cannot be formed by one or both of the opponents, e.g. three rank-3 Siege Archers.
    5. The X random builds are announced to the two opponents. They can freely restat their units, but they cannot swap ranks or change the turn-order. Maybe we could allow rank-swapping for up to one unit pair (e.g. [SS(r2) PK(r3)] could be swapped for [SS(r3) PK(r2)]), and rotating of the unit-order by one place to the left/right (e.g. [WH RM BB BM SS SRM] can be rotated to the left as [RM BB BM SS SRM WH]).
    6. Each player can select any of the X random builds for each match, but he cannot use the same build twice. This gives the contestants some time for proving-grounds mind-guessing and metagaming against his opponent. For example, one could save the best of the X builds for the second match, in case he loses the first match where he chose a sub-optimal build.
    7. The random-build generation is done per-{opponent pair}, by somebody trustworthy or while live-streaming. So, in the quarter-final round with a Bo3 format, there are four pairs of combatants, so we'll need to have 12=4*3 random builds drawn.
    8. We could also give one "veto" to each player, i.e. the power to remove certain builds from the set. For example, instead of X builds, the randomizer generates X+2 builds, and each player can have one of the builds removed. For example, if the randomizer produced a build that my opponent is known to profess in (e.g. the [2SA 2TS 2WM] build, and my opponent is stoicmom ), I would certainly use my "veto" on that one.


    Other, simpler ways to use the randomizer are the following:

    A. Mirror/Fixed: One random build is generated, and both players use that build, for all X matches
    B. Mirror/Changing: For each of the X matches, one new random build is generated, and both players use that build
    C. Different/Fixed: Two random build are generated, one for each player; each player uses that build for all X matches
    D. Different/Changing: For each of the X matches, two new random builds are generated, one for each player
    E. Common Pool of N (re-usable) builds: A set of N builds is generated, common for the two players. Each player chooses one build from that set. The same build can be used any number of times. The number N can take any value, e.g. N=1, N=X (as in BoX), N=X+2 etc
    F. Common Pool of N (single-use) builds: A set of N builds is generated, common for the two players. Each player chooses one build from that set. The same build cannot be used twice. The number N must be greater than (or equal to) X, as in BoX.
    G. Different Pool of N (re-usable) builds: Same as "E", but the pool generated for each player is different.
    H. Different Pool of N (single-use) builds: Same as "F", but the pool generated for each player is different.



    To get things started:
    -- What do you think of these rules?
    -- Who's in for this?



    Update: Finalized participants list
    1. Aleonymous
    2. grumpyoldman
    3. stoicmom
    4. Guğmundr
    5. Tirean
    6. Yngvar
    7. Tyrael
    8. visorium



    Update: Aleo's TBSF Randomizer
    Inspired by Rensei's work, I did a similar project of my own on Java, adding some more functionality. Check this post for more details on how it works and get the program



    Final Update: Finals, Champion & Tourney Brackets
    Tournament finals between Tirean and Tyrael took place in 27-Nov-2014, with Tyreal winning by 2-1. All Hail Tyrael! Here's the complete tourney board/brackets, with all the match-ups:

    Last edited by Aleonymous; 03-28-2018 at 09:17 AM. Reason: dropbox links were broken
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  2. #2
    Heya,
    thanks for your effort Aleonymous!

    You got one affirmation of these rules here, or, alternatively, one voice for option H !

    We are counting on you guys! Random builds is where the fun begins: Try to cope with what you got; if you lose, you can still blame your poor build! Literally, there is nothing to lose at all!
    Last edited by grumpyoldman; 07-19-2014 at 10:35 AM.

  3. #3
    Factions veteran stoicmom's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Oak Ridge, TN
    Posts
    290
    Of course i'm in for this tourney Just checked my teamspeak and apparently have been disconnected - sorry about that!

  4. #4
    Community Moderator Guğmundr's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Skogr, Setterlund
    Posts
    822
    I'm in for the tourney, but I can usually only play 1 or 2 matches per day, I don't know if that would work or not. I vote for B, sounds the most interesting to me - to see how different people stat and play mirror builds differently against each other.
    Án brynju, mağur er varnarlaus. Án styrks, er hann ekkert.

  5. #5
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    2,444
    Quote Originally Posted by Guğmundr View Post
    I'm in for the tourney, but I can usually only play 1 or 2 matches per day, I don't know if that would work or not.
    I can see no problem: You can arrange with your opponent to fight your Bo3 matches in different days, or just do a single (Bo1) match and be done with it!
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  6. #6
    Backer Tyrael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    16
    Great idea, i'm in.
    My favourite would be simply D, is the most interesting i think. And a veto sounds good too.

  7. #7
    I'm in.

  8. #8
    Tourney hype! I am up for any of the options. Mr adaptable is me.

  9. #9
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    2,444
    Participants List:
    1. Aleonymous
    2. grumpyoldman
    3. stoicmom
    4. Guğmundr
    5. Tirean
    6. Yngvar
    7. Tyrael (*** to be confirmed)
    8 ???

    We need one (or two) more participants, and we are ready to start the first installment of this tourney.

    Once the "octet" is complete, I will do a random-draw to form the four pairs and the knock-out bracket. Then, each pair can decide which variation of the Randomizer rules (ref: first post of this thread) they will use as well as how many matches will be played. The only thing required is to tell us who advances to the next round! And, if possible, post a recording --or, better, announce a live-stream-- of the match(es).
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  10. #10
    Just remember that I most likely will not be available from the 24th July to around about the 8th/9th of August due to a speedrunning event I am attending.

  11. #11
    I'll be gigging around from time to time but, meanwhile, I'd like to break some shields.

  12. #12
    I still don't understand how it works but I'm with you, Warriors! Skål!

    I see it like 3 battle: 2 - in variant B and variant C for the final, third battle.
    Last edited by visorium; 07-21-2014 at 08:05 PM.

  13. #13
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    2,444
    Quote Originally Posted by visorium View Post
    I still don't understand how it works but I'm with you, Warriors! Skål! I see it like 3 battle: 2 - in variant B and variant C for the final, third battle.
    It's completely up to the two opponents to decide on:
    (a) how many matches they'll play & when they'll play them,
    (b) what power-level they'll play at,
    (c) how they'll use the randomizer for any of the suggested variants in the first post.
    They only need to tell us who won, and what were the teams chosen.

    Participants List:
    1. Aleonymous
    2. grumpyoldman
    3. stoicmom
    4. Guğmundr
    5. Tirean
    6. Yngvar
    7. Tyrael (*** to be confirmed)
    8. visorium

    Once I confirm Tyrael's participation, hopefully by this afternoon, we will hold the draw and post it here, so that you guys will know who you'll have to battle and make arrangements with him/her.

    I suggest that stoicmom will hold the draw, being our senior member I've everything set up, so she only needs to do the following things:
    1. Click on this link (random.org RNG generator) and hit the "Again!" but a couple of times,
    2. Copy/paste the "Set 1" string of eight integer numbers here; the number string is something like "Set 1: 2, 3, 5, 8, 6, 1, 7, 4"
    3. In the example above, it will mean that the pairs are gonna be [2-vs-3], [5-vs-8], [6-vs-1], [7-vs-4] (the numbers correspond to the eight players as labeled in this post)
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  14. #14
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    2,444
    And here are the contestants' name-banners:



    For Aleonymous, stoicmom, Gudmundr, visorium & Yngvar the colors were chosen based on their forum-avatar colors. For Tirean, I used the colors sported by his favorite unit, the red thrasher! :P For, Tyraael, I used the Diablo character's main colors. For grumpy, I had no clue, so I went with something neutral =/

    If you don't like your colors, please provide RGB triplets (or point me to a color from this loooong list) for me to update them

    EDIT -- I changed grumpy's colors according to his preference: bright-red letters/border on a RAF-blue field.
    Last edited by Aleonymous; 07-22-2014 at 12:02 PM.
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  15. #15
    TBSF_RBT_NameBannersgrumpy.jpg
    that's what imagined. No idea why it displays the colour that differently - i checked back the values, they are still the same. Sadly my tool messed up the lines... But please dont trouble yourself, I may go with that clear-sky-blue, too!
    Thanks for doing them, great idea!

  16. #16
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    2,444
    Ladies and gentlemen, the draw has been help by our esteemed stoicmom. Here's what she drew:

    Draw:
    3, 8, 7, 4, 2, 1, 5, 6

    Quarter-Final Pairs:
    Code:
    Pair A: 3. stoicmom     vs. 8. visorium
    Pair B: 7. Tyrael       vs. 4. Guğmundr
    Pair C: 2. grumpyoldman vs. 1. Aleonymous
    Pair D: 5. Tirean       vs. 6. Yngvar
    In the semi-finals, we'll have matches between winners of pairs A & B, and between winners of pairs C & D.

    OK, you vikings, go find your opponent and arrange your matches! Post details here, so that we can follow.
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  17. #17
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    2,444
    Here are the choices me and grumpy made, so that you can pose the same questions and decide faster:

    • Best of= 3
    • Power= 12
    • Random builds= 3 different ones for each of us ; non re-usable
    • Allow ranks-change= Yes (no restrictions)
    • Allow order-rotation= Yes (but not re-ordering!)
    • Allow Rank-0s= No
    • Fix Two Varls= Yes
    • Allow 2x or 3x same-class units= Yes


    Since both of our barracks are quite full (e.g. I have 3x of all units) and we allowed rank-changing, we don't have any restrictions for random builds, i.e. we can make anything! So, who would like to have the honor of drawing those six random builds, splitting them in two sets of three (one labeled "aleo", the other "grumpy") and posting them here for us to get started? Directions:

    In Rensei's randomizer, don't worry about power & ranks, just post the classes and the order here. So: (a) fix power at 12, (b) uncheck "allow basic units", (c) check force two varl, (d) roll the dice six times and record the builds in a piece of paper, (e) post the builds here, saying "Here you are guys:...". In end, we want something like:

    aleo: [TS RM WM BM SA WL] , [BB BB BB SA SRM SRM], [BM SA SS RM SM WH]
    grumpy: [WH BM SA SS RM SM] , [WL TS RM WM BM SA] , [SRM BB BB SA SRM BB]
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  18. #18
    Aleo: [SA(2) WM(3) TS(2) SRM(2) BB(2) BM(1)], [WM(3) SA(2) WH(3) TS(1) SA(2) RM(1)], [SM(2) SM(1) SS(3) BM(3) BM(1) TS(2)]

    Grumpy: [RM(2) WM(2) SM(1) SA(2) SA(3) RM(2)], [WH(2) BB(1) BB(3) SM(3) BB(1) BM(1)], [TS(1) BB(2) SA(2) BB(3) TS(1) BB(3)]

    Edited.

    Grumpy's extra build: [WH(2) WH(2) TS(2) TS(2) SA(1) TS(3)]
    Last edited by Yngvar; 07-22-2014 at 01:16 PM.

  19. #19
    Thanks Yngvar! I just finished my stream, drawing the builds for the two of us.

    Since Aleo and me got 6 builds each now, we agreed on another rule: We both may remove 3 builds of our choice from the other. Great fun!


    Here are the 6 builds for Aleo:

    1. WL WM BB BB TH SA
    2. SS RM BM WL BM WH
    3. SRM WM BB BM BB SS
    4. SA WM TH SRM BB BM
    5. WM SA WH TH SA RM
    6. SB SB SS BM BM TH <--- What unit do you mean by SB Yngvar? The Shieldmaster I guess?



    And the 6 for me:

    1. SA SA PR TH TH WH
    2. SM WH SA BM TH TH
    3. SRM PR TH BM BB TH
    4. RM WM SB SA SA RM
    5. WH BB BB SB BB BM
    6. WH WH TH TH SA TH



    Here's the link to my drawing:

    https://www.twitch.tv/grumpytheyounger/b/550071623
    Last edited by grumpyoldman; 07-22-2014 at 01:13 PM.

  20. #20
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    2,444
    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyoldman View Post
    Since Aleo and me got 6 builds each now, we agreed on another rule: We both may remove 3 builds of our choice from the other. Great fun!
    OK, here are your three available builds (in bold) my dear opponent:
    1. SA SA PR TH TH WH
    2. veto: SM WH SA BM TH TH
    3. SRM PR TH BM BB TH
    4. RM WM SB SA SA RM
    5. veto: WH BB BB SB BB BM
    6. veto: WH WH TH TH SA TH


    Thank god for the "veto" system! That last [2WH 3TS SA] build Yngvar drew for you was so wicked
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •