Next Factions Community Tournament -- Discussion

[netnazgul]

So I hope we fit everyone asking into groups and can finally close the draft and start the tournament (hopefully - on challonge).

Questions are about how to better generate randoms for players, what the preferable power of builds is (I'm for 12) and the most important one - have we agreed on a maximum match setup time (i.e. 1-2 days) to speed the things up?

Also - what will be the handicap for home/away?
I have a suggestion for this:
A) Each player is drafted 3 random builds. He selects 1 build that he will play in his home game. He then chooses one of the opponent's 2 builds left for his opponent to play in that home game.
B) The same, but 5 builds are drafted, and between 4 builds 2 are chosen for opponent to select among.

Example (for variant B):
Player1 is drafted with builds ABCDE. Player2 is drafted with FGHIJ.
Player1 chooses to play A for his home game. Player2 chooses F for his home game.
Player1 selects G and H among opponent's builds. Player2 chooses B and C.
So, in Player1's home game it's either (A vs G) or (A vs H); Player2 decides.
In Player2's home game it's (B vs F) or (C vs F), Player1 decides.

All in all we have:
a) random builds
b) less randomness due to several builds to choose from
c) home/away system integrated
d) fun

Still needs a 3rd party to generate 10 builds for each pair. Or a live stream with drafting process.

PS: Ranks (if it's p12) and stats are selected by each player manually, turn order is provided by random I suppose

[Aleonymous]

Lost Viking and I can play right now if you get w/Viking and see the copesetic level and give us the builds

I understand your eagerness to fight, but hold on a sec, so that we can clarify things, w.r.t. how we did things in the previous RBT (random-build tournament):

• A neutral person drew a set of builds. Here there were many difference variations, to give the players some options in the match-up:
  
  1. The set of builds was common for the two players, and they chose from those builds. Or, there were two different sets of random builds, one set for each player.
  2. Players could remove a build from the opponent's options (a "veto") and/or from their own options (a "drop").
  3. Builds from a set could be re-used; or used only once and then discarded.
  4. In Bo3 match-ups, the order of the builds in a set could be fixed or could be changed.
• Base-class restrictions could apply, like: (1) force 2-varl, (2) force 2-raider/2-archer, (3) force 1-warrior/1-shieldbanger, (4) exclude rank-0 units.
• The order of the units in a build, as well as the class of a unit, could NOT be changed.
• The stats could be changed at will and the ranks of the units as well; the latter had to amount to a given power-level (e.g. p12). Fixing the ranks can be restricting for players with small barracks, so we leave rank-changing free.

So, discuss this with your group-members (or with each opp separately) and tell me, or another neutral, what builds to roll for you

[Aleonymous]

I have a suggestion for this:
A) Each player is drafted 3 random builds. He selects 1 build that he will play in his home game. He then chooses one of the opponent's 2 builds left for his opponent to play in that home game.
B) The same, but 5 builds are drafted, and between 4 builds 2 are chosen for opponent to select among.

I'd suggest you guys use option (A).

What's more, I would like to extend this by introducing the "Equiprobable Random Build (ERB)" sets, where each unit-class appears a given amount of times. Here's the description: fixing the build base-classes to 2Varl/2Raider/2Archer, in each set of three builds you'll have exactly: [1WM 1WH 1WL], [1PK 1SRM 1SM], [2TH 2RM 2BB], [2SA 2SS 2BM]; of course these might fall in whichever order. The bottom line is this: you won't have the bad luck of seeing the opp's builds full of Thrashers and Bowmasters, while you only get Backbiters and Warleaders Here's an example of two ERB sets:



Notes:
1. Equiprobable Sets can only have 3,6,9,12, (3*M) number of builds. That is, we can't do an Equiprobable set with 4 builds...
2. If you decide you like this idea, I can write a small Java program to generate such ERB sets (and/or maybe incorporate this on my RBG). For the moment, here is a text-file with a pre-generated & numbered list of 1000 such ERB sets; picking a random number between 1 and 1000 will give you the corresponding ERB set from that list...

[netnazgul]

OK, I've figured it out how to maintain the tournament on challonge, so I'm creating it there (Aleo is co-maintainer). Everyone is welcome to register there and tell me his username so that he will be able to submit his results (makes maintaining easier ofc).

At the moment I've set the groups up as Aleo said (adding ojustme to group C). Still everything is a subject to change

Oh, the link https://tbsc.challonge.com/bannersaga_fct

(Don't mind the dummies, as the tournament starts - we will delete them, they're just there to pad groups to a given player number)


update: clarifying challonge system. Every match you see is treated as 2 games (called "sets" there). So you submit results from both your games (home and away) in a single match. Match itself doesn't give any points, in this system it's just a dummy bypassing mechanic. It's the sets which are important, and each set gives 3 points for a win and 1 point for a tie (if any). Set is a one match of factions this way. I hope I made it understandable

[Aleonymous]

update: clarifying challonge system. Every match you see is treated as 2 games (called "sets" there). So you submit results from both your games (home and away) in a single match. Match itself doesn't give any points, in this system it's just a dummy bypassing mechanic. It's the sets which are important, and each set gives 3 points for a win and 1 point for a tie (if any). Set is a one match of factions this way. I hope I made it understandable

Alright, I got it; so, that makes two of us, and we can manage this!

Here's my mnemonic:

• [Factions' match-up (e.g. Aleo-vs-netnazgul)] == [Challonge's "Match"] --> dummy mechanic (no points given).
• [Factions' battle] == [Challonge's Set] --> Primary point-system: +3 per Set-win or +1 per Set-draw/tie.
• [Factions' NOULA (number of units left alive)] == [Challonge's Set score] --> Secondary point-system: Used for tie-breaking.

[Mermzilla]

as far as team generation goes, i wouldn't mind i little bit of luck at all ^^ my preference would be force two Varls, force same ranks and forbid same character class @p12, but i am so very okay with anything and am really looking forward to it! my schedule is fairly open as of late, and i have added my group members to steam, so guys just message me when everything is ready. anyone else is more than welcome to add me to steam as Mermzilla on steam, which is probably the easiest way of communicating with me as i can be a forum ditz

[ojustme]

I'm slow again, but yeah - i'm in ^_^ In Random bunch, i guess, as there are more players there -> more fun. My roster is pretty solid, but i have a lack of WarVarls (except for 6 WLs, lol).

[Rymdkejsaren]

Registered on challonge: Rymdkejsaren. I can honestly say I hope someone tells me what to do when the time comes because I have not the energy to get into what you are all talking about!

[netnazgul]

Tournament has officially started!
First match was held by me against IIpuBeT.

3 random builds, from which we drawn each one's home team and opponent's away team.
IIpuBeT
Build Set 00666
1: TH WM WL BB SS SS (away)
2: SA BB RM SR SM BM
3: WH PK SA TH BM RM (home)

netnazgul
Build Set 00842
1: WH SA WM TH BB SA (home)
2: SS RM WL SR BM RM
3: BM SS PK TH BB SM (away)

Results are:

Game1, home netnazgul. 3-0
WH SA WM TH BB SA vs TH WM WL BB SS SS

Game2, home IIpuBeT. 3-0
WH PK SA TH BM RM vs BM SS PK TH BB SM
I'll upload games tomorrow.

[Lost Viking]

Well I hope my Group can have some flexibility when it comes to the unit ranks. I simply don't have enough renown to get a rank 3 of Everything. I'll gladly supply my opponent with the options to raise or lower the rank of my troops depending what I have available hope that's alright with everyone, or ill sub in a rank 0 base unit whatever hehe

[JackJammer]

I think the system of group c is just fine, would say group d could just use it,too

I'm registered on challonge as JackJammer, how can i join tourney now there? And do we have to play the matches as given on challonge? for exmaple could yngvar and me just do our match, when it happens we're both online and have time for our matches?

[netnazgul]

I'm registered on challonge as JackJammer, how can i join tourney now there? And do we have to play the matches as given on challonge? for exmaple could yngvar and me just do our match, when it happens we're both online and have time for our matches?

Registering on challonge just gives you an option to submit your games there. You can still play games without it, just would need to tell the results so one of admins (me or Aleo) can update tables. Hooked you up, you can check it (and you should have received an email)
As for the order - you can play them as you want, no restrictions on this part. We've played our match with IIpuBeT already, you can see that it's only 8th in the list.

[JackJammer]

all right, good to hear...veringatorix and i couldn't wait for an answer and just finished our games i quite enjoyed them, they were fun. hope veringatorix feels the same
we used the system of your group, think this works out pretty good.
so we had my homegame first, veringatorixs followed.
We played these matches, all with level6:
SA BB SR TH BM PK (my hometeam) vs SS SR TH SA TH WL, resulting with win of my team.
SS BB SA WH RM WM (Veringatorixs hometeam) vs SM WM RM SA RM BM, resulting with win of my awayteam after we left a pile of corpses in the middle of the map

Sadly we didn't record it, but be sure that matches were a lot of fun and you wouldn't wanna miss them, if you could see them

[netnazgul]

I see people do some little mistakes when submitting scores, so I'll clarify - when you submit match result, set score is how many characters are left at the end of battle! 3 points for a win (or 1 for an occasional draw, but be sure to write equal number of characters then) are awarded automatically. Match winner is optional, although you still do set it correctly as it will be counted 3rd on tie-breaking (after NOULA and NOULA +/-diff)

[mindflare77]

Just played Mermzilla. Well. "Played" may be generous, as I more or less lined up for the slaughter, I believe.

First match was Strongarm, BM, SM, TH, BB, TH (me) @ SS, SS, PK, SM, BB SS (Mermzilla). Mermzilla had all three archers survive.

Second match was SA, PK, BB, BB, SM, RM (Mermzilla) @ WL, BB, WH, SA, BM, TH (me). Mermzilla also won that with three units remaining, although I'm going to tell myself that it was a closer match than the first. As an aside, anyone have tips on how to use a Warleader? Ugh. lol.


Both matches were p6 because I have a pathetically small roster, apparently. I would've sworn I had a larger one... Anyways. For Home/Away advantage, we made it such that whoever was Home could either pick the stage, or reroll their team. Away got to do the other. I streamed them, but apparently didn't record them (Didn't know there was a difference, go me!).

[netnazgul]

I streamed them, but apparently didn't record them (Didn't know there was a difference, go me!).

if you streamed on twitch, it should have been available in "past broadcasts" for some time, and you need to "highlight and save forever" or it gets deleted. Maybe there is some other option to be enabled.

[Aleonymous]

if you streamed on twitch, it should have been available in "past broadcasts" for some time, and you need to "highlight and save forever" or it gets deleted. Maybe there is some other option to be enabled.

@mindflare77: Indeed, you do have to enable an option, and then do a highlight from your recent broadcasts, in order to save a stream/video forever. Here is the option you have to enable:

Twitch (Log-in) > Settings > Channel & Videos > Tick "Automatically archive my broadcasts"

[Lost Viking]

Mindflare you say the one advantage was to re-roll your team, does this mean you rolled the teams yourself or did you use a third party to do so? Cause I can see a problem when trying to match up and having a third party roll our teams we need to be 3 people available at the same time. I am fine with just Rolling them ourselves really as cheating for this sort of thing just seems a bit far fetched and defeats all purpose anyway. Or if the others in the Group would like a third party to roll our teams could we ask someone to do so ahead of our match times so once two of us gets on at the same time to play we don't haveto worry about finding someone to roll our teams?

[AnotherPersona]

Alright, Sir Mermzilla and I fought Valiantly.

His home game - I won with 4 units left.
My home game - He won with 3 units left.

We are still rather uncertain as to the whole, but went with my assumptions. If these are wrong.. alrighty.

[netnazgul]

Now is the right time to start caring about the tournament again, being sober after holidays and all