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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Your Guide to Units

  1. #41
    Hi, any chance that the initial info in this thread gets updated with respect to new ranks? I guess, that it is not obvious to everyone, e.g., how the provoker skill on level 2 and 3 works (at least it is not for me...).

  2. #42
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Hello Bloodaddict. The Rank-{1,2,3} Provoker can Malice a single enemy unit at a tile-distance of {1=adjacent,2,3}, respectively. Malice forces {archer,melee}-units to {move-away from,engage} the Provoker, respectively, in order to do a regular Strength attack.

    You're right. The unit-guide in the Thread/Forum should get updated/stickied or else "outsourced" somehow . But, keep in mind that, as the game is still in a balancing & fine-tuning process, there's a lot of small changes (nerfs & buffs alike) with every new Build.

  3. #43
    Developer raven2134's Avatar
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    We'll look into it in the coming days . Hadn't crossed my mind to update this

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleonymous View Post
    Hello Bloodaddict. The Rank-{1,2,3} Provoker can Malice a single enemy unit at a tile-distance of {1=adjacent,2,3}, respectively. Malice forces {archer,melee}-units to {move-away from,engage} the Provoker, respectively, in order to do a regular Strength attack.
    Thanks! So that means that the initial info is even wrong now? There it says "Archers can't hit adjacent enemies. When Malice is used on an Archer they'll simply lose their turn." So with rank 1 Malice archers would now first run, than shoot? And at lvl 2/3, do they shoot directly or do they always run first? And how far do they run and in which direction? And if melee units approach, do they always use the shortest path? Or do they avoid e.g. coals? Lots of detail questions...

    Edit: Raven, I was typing while you posted, so looking forward to the updates!

    Aleonymous, I don't expect you to answer them all (but would be glad if you could! ), but maybe someone who has the info and the permissions can update/correct the initial post.

    (I guess there is no need to say, that this info would be excellent to have in-game! Someone provoking could even say that it should be obligatory to have it in-game... )

    Edit: Raven, I was typing while you posted. So, I am looking forward to the mentioned updates!
    Last edited by Bloodaddict; 04-03-2013 at 07:21 AM.

  5. #45
    Some questions:

    • What happens if a unit is Maliced by two PKs?
    • What happens if the unit is out of range (because they've been pushed by a SRM)? Do they just run as close as possible without using WP?

  6. #46
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    Yeah. Provoker's Malice really seems a tricky one! I admit that I haven't really tested a Rank>1 Malice, so I'll not attempt to answer. The info I provided what an "averaging" of observations made.

    Regarding Bloodaddicts & franknarfs specifics, I guess playtesting & dev-feedback could help sketch-out the algorithm. If we had the AI ready, we could answer more safely. Nevertheless the core-idea seems simple. Here's how I'd do it
    [DISCLAIMER:The following is pure speculation!]
    (1) If the is a clear-path to engage, go show him!
    (2) If there is hazardeous one, i.e. coals, take that one, regardless of the cost [You're absolutely Maliced!].
    (3) If there's no-way to engage, just move as close/far as possible (melee/archer). Between two choices, take the shortest path, tile-wise speaking.
    (*) Adjacent Maliced-archers prioritize to get to a range of 2-tiles first (and then 3,4,5).
    (*) In no way are you to spend WP for an exertion-run.
    (*) In no way are you to spend WP for an ability-attack [You're too Maliced for that!].
    (*) When Maliced multiple times, "highest-ranked malice first" then "last-come first-served".
    [DISCLAIMER:The above is pure speculation!]

    But, lets hear the "Specialists" on this...
    Last edited by Aleonymous; 04-03-2013 at 07:58 AM.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Butters's Avatar
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    Yes, malice is very tricky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleonymous View Post
    (1) If the is a clear-path to engage, go show him!
    (2) If there is hazardeous one, i.e. coals, take that one, regardless of the cost [You're absolutely Maliced!].
    (3) If there's no-way to engage, just move as close/far as possible (melee/archer). Between two choices, take the shortest path, tile-wise speaking.
    (*) Adjacent Maliced-archers prioritize to get to a range of 2-tiles first (and then 3,4,5).
    (*) In no way are you to spend WP for an exertion-run.
    (*) In no way are you to spend WP for an ability-attack [You're too Maliced for that!].
    (*) When Maliced multiple times, "highest-ranked malice first" then "last-come first-served".
    My testing was very limited but your rules are consistent with it.
    Melee units always take the shortest path and will run through coals (and RoA ).
    Archers will step back 1 tile ; if that tile is blocked, they will walk to the nearest tile in range 2.
    I have yet to encounter a situation where the maliced unit is unable to get to the PK, so no result on if/how they move in that situation. For archers though I think (3) is moot (if they can get to range to, then they can engage ; if they can't, I suppose they'd just stand still, not move "as far as possible" - which if they can't engage is range 1 from the PK, which is where they are already).

  8. #48
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    OK. So rules (1)+(2) are actually one: "Use the shortest-path, regardless of visible hazards". And, yes, rule (3) for archers is "self-void", so it degenerates to an archer-specific rule: "When a Maliced adjacent-archer is trapped, she does nothing". The latter is consistent with the melee-rule for malicing adjacent units: "Simply attack!", being the most-important use of Malice anyway.

    My general outline was that the Maliced units lose their nerve and perform reckless & desperate actions (potentially pointless too!) to get to their goal, i.e., attack the Provoker.

    Synergy of Rank-1 or -2 Malice (applied at melee units) with RoA should be really devastating combo!

  9. #49
    Senior Member Butters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleonymous View Post
    Synergy of Rank-1 or -2 Malice (applied at melee units) with RoA should be really devastating combo!
    It's a lot of setup and wp spent, but it sure is a satisfying move ^^
    Setting it up to have RoA do puncture damage seems very challenging though.
    In the end I'm not sure it's really that devastating. It could be in late game, but there are so many imponderables that could go wrong...

  10.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #50
    Art Director Arnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franknarf View Post
    Some questions:

    • What happens if a unit is Maliced by two PKs?
    • What happens if the unit is out of range (because they've been pushed by a SRM)? Do they just run as close as possible without using WP?
    Latest Malice will overwrite the first.
    If a unit is knocked out of range of attack after being Maliced then they will try to path back to hit him. Archers will move close enough then shoot when in range. Nasty as sometimes you can get units to path further away from him in an effort to work their way around a blockade.

  11.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #51
    Art Director Arnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleonymous View Post
    Yeah. Provoker's Malice really seems a tricky one! I admit that I haven't really tested a Rank>1 Malice, so I'll not attempt to answer. The info I provided what an "averaging" of observations made.

    Regarding Bloodaddicts & franknarfs specifics, I guess playtesting & dev-feedback could help sketch-out the algorithm. If we had the AI ready, we could answer more safely. Nevertheless the core-idea seems simple. Here's how I'd do it
    [DISCLAIMER:The following is pure speculation!]
    (1) If the is a clear-path to engage, go show him!
    (2) If there is hazardeous one, i.e. coals, take that one, regardless of the cost [You're absolutely Maliced!].
    (3) If there's no-way to engage, just move as close/far as possible (melee/archer). Between two choices, take the shortest path, tile-wise speaking.
    (*) Adjacent Maliced-archers prioritize to get to a range of 2-tiles first (and then 3,4,5).
    (*) In no way are you to spend WP for an exertion-run.
    (*) In no way are you to spend WP for an ability-attack [You're too Maliced for that!].
    (*) When Maliced multiple times, "highest-ranked malice first" then "last-come first-served".
    [DISCLAIMER:The above is pure speculation!]

    But, lets hear the "Specialists" on this...
    Very nice stuff. Kudos.
    On a related note, when we first put this in we made units use WP to try and get to him, but it was OP. Sometimes units would use 3 WP trying to work their way around a blockade of units.

  12. #52
    Skald Aleonymous's Avatar
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    So, you're confirming that Maliced units actually try to circumvent visible hazard-tiles (coals), preferring detours to a straight way through fire & blood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnie View Post
    Sometimes units would use 3 WP trying to work their way around a blockade of units.
    Yup. It seems terribly cruel to "rob" a unit of 3WP with a 2WP-Malice... Needless to say that pulling units into RoA (and/or SnB? [see question above]) is already bad-enough, not even counting the skip-turn and RtF!

  13. #53
    Senior Member Butters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleonymous View Post
    So, you're confirming that Maliced units actually try to circumvent visible hazard-tiles (coals), preferring detours to a straight way through fire & blood?
    I don't see anything in Arnie's reply implying that...
    I'd wager they do so only when choosing between two paths of the same length. If the straight line has coals, they will still take it. That's nothing more than my own guess though.

  14.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #54
    Art Director Arnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleonymous View Post
    So, you're confirming that Maliced units actually try to circumvent visible hazard-tiles (coals), preferring detours to a straight way through fire & blood?
    No. They will run through coals, I was referring to a blockade of units.

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